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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:03 am 
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Mysthral wrote:
My only fear is having two separate Guilds and watering down the membership to only just a few, in both Guilds.


I don't see why, if one can join both. I also don't think that these guilds overlap that much: yes, they're both 'artistic' roles, but IMHO creating content to be used for an Age (textures, models, music, scripts, etc.) is different from making content that can be used in an Age, or another one, or your website (prose, paintings, photographs, etc.). Same artistic skills, different application.

Of course there can (and will) be collaborations and overlapping: once someone made that nice stained glass work, someone else will have to put it in a model in game. ;) But I don't see anything bad in that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:34 am 
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Gorobay wrote:
I don't see what the problem is with having two guilds. The only arts that both the Writers and the Artists have in common are background music, concept art, special art created for specific ages, and backstory. Most of Writing is not related to the Fine Artists' art and vice versa.

^ Yeah, that. ^

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:33 pm 
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Quote:
I don't see why, if one can join both. I also don't think that these guilds overlap that much: yes, they're both 'artistic' roles, but IMHO creating content to be used for an Age (textures, models, music, scripts, etc.) is different from making content that can be used in an Age, or another one, or your website (prose, paintings, photographs, etc.). Same artistic skills, different application.

Of course there can (and will) be collaborations and overlapping: once someone made that nice stained glass work, someone else will have to put it in a model in game. ;) But I don't see anything bad in that.

Ok, I think I'm beginning to see the distinction between the two. Now would the GoA / GoFA be recognized as an official guild by Cyan, or is it up to us now to make it so? :roll:
:D :D :D :D Thank you Ian for opening up my eyes!


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My only reservation in re-tabling this proposal is that I always got the impression from the materials in Kirel that Cyan envisioned the Guild of Cartographers as being the ones to play the former role, not a new organization. But then, I don’t know whether or not the GoC shares that opinion. I’m hoping to get feedback from them on this, and from Tweek, and from the old Guild of Artisans, and from anyone else who has an opinion and might be interested.

Here is my two cents again, he he! Althought drawing is a major part of a cartographer's job, IMHO, their "job" is not the same, so different in purpose from the GoFA (not saying that the art cannot also be beautiful).

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Last edited by Mysthral on Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:56 pm 
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I might have missed something - I usually do - but for the life of me I can't figure out where fiction writers will fit into any new rendition of Uru. I wish I could. Well... except for writing journals that would get left around for explorers to stumble over, maybe. I'm thinking of the actual use-words writers here. Does anybody else see a place for contributions in this area? The old Guild of Artisans had a few of us, but with Prologue folding we never got functional. :?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:24 pm 
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My concept for the GoFA was to include creative writers, sculptors, photographers and so on. Creative writing in Uru still happens, Echo Mackenzie is a prime example of such.

When it comes to the Guilds I tend to see it as there is just one huge body, within it are limbs, Writers, Artists, Cartographers etc. These all work in unison towards a common goal, this is because like others have said the guilds tend to overlap.

Writers have Age designers, concept mapping, writing of journals/story, book makers/ink makers then the actual building, plus testing.

Right there we have tasks that guilds like Artists and Cartographers could do. Book making is a difficult one, do they make models for books to add to ages, do they design book covers? Is designing book covers something that falls under Artists?

Or do Book makers come to the Artists and work with us to make covers? Same for things like concept designs etc?

That said many people belong to multiple guilds so that isn't much of an issue (I contribute to both Cartographers and Writers for example).

On another note for those of you who took a glance at the site and saw writers listed on there and got confused (if any of you did) please note it does say writers and not Writers (Writers being Age makers, writers being regular writers).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Sign me up! I have a humor column and a book in the works, I wanna play with others in the creative arts! Will we have a Bevin to play in when MORE is here?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Count me in too! I'm a bit of a musician. I'm not yet up to Tim Larkin standards but I'm getting better I think. I'm trying to save up for a new program that would essentially give me access to a full orchestra. If anyone wants to check out a few of my songs, you can go here. This is so cool! I can't wait! :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:12 am 
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Wow! Didn’t expect so many replies so fast:D

My thoughts on these matters of roles and relationships between the Guilds parallel some of the others than have been expressed, although I seem to have come at them from a different direction. It is my opinion (and I stress, my opinion) that what Cyan was proposing for the GoC in Kirel was not simply a group to make maps, but a group dedicated to handling all the content surrounding player-created Ages-- journals, maps, 2D depictions, back story, sociology and biology of the inhabitants, ecology of the Age beyond what you can see-- all the flesh-out stuff that helps take an Age in the mind of the player from being a limited 3D environment to being a real place, and part of the continuity of the Myst universe. And that they suggested Cartographers as the group to do this because it was historically a Major Guild, and because all of those activities and disciplines could conceivably be conducted under the auspices of making maps. Kirel as it stood is out the window, of course, and whether or not such a group could or should ever exist is open for debate. It might not be desirable, because the disciplines involved are so diverse, and because there are already cool, passionate people of every stripe working within them, ones who have their own ideas about how those disciplines are best served within the community, are who doing an excellent job fulfilling them. And it might not be necessary, given the proven ability of those people to communicate successfully with each other, and given the extent to which all our various arts permeate each other. But I mention it because the absence of such a group-- the lack of the fifth spoke on the wheel, if you will-- results in my view in a lot of creative people who want to contribute, either to MORE or just in general, and who are uncertain about how to do so, in a way that members of the five Major Guilds are not. I’m attracted to the idea of a Guild of Fine Artists because I believe that it could help somewhat in alleviating that issue.

Because that’s where my focus lies, most of what I’ve been envisioning falls under the category of Goal One (of the two goals I delineated at the top of this thread): the “go-to group that can be used as a resource for the production of Uru-related art”. I’m envisioning a free-standing organization that cooperates hand-in-hand with anyone and everyone else in the Cavern who is need of Art, whether that's the entire roster of the GoW, or UruJoe2344. And “Art” is a big category, one that can cover a LOT of ground. Members of the Guild of Fine Artists could be creating textures, doing concept art to clarify aspects of proposed Ages, writing and laying out text and illustrations for journals (and maps), or creating paintings or sculpture to be included in those Ages-- and they could also be composing music for public spaces, doing print art and animation to accent in-Cavern communications and Uru-related web sites, designing Minkata birthday cards for UruJoe, choreographing new avatar emotes, designing new avi clothes, and probably a dozen other things I can't think of off the top of my head. Even if some of those things are already being done by other people. Shonda, you want to write? I have an idea for a story about two women who loved the same man, one of whom knew the Art and one of whom led an army— and no idea where to go with it from there, or how to make it believable. BANG! I need a fiction writer. I want a searchable database of GoFA members and their talents and examples of their work, so that I can look through it and find your name and see whether or not your writing is gonna get it where I want it to go. I want a GoFA bbs where I can drop a note and say, “Hey! I need two fiction writers to knock out two competing takes on this-- and a sketch artist specializing in head shots, who can draw the three main characters!” Maybe it won’t be an Age-- maybe it’ll wind up being a play. Oh heck, I need actors…

Better: as has already been illustrated amply by the responses here-- that’s just my angle! There’s sure to be people with a different take on Goal One, and there’s obviously a lot of people who are plenty excited about Goal Two: the idea of a community devoted to creative arts and the exchange of ideas among artists, and never mind the content. That rocks, and is every bit as important. Tweek’s site, I think, in whatever form it ends up assuming, is going to be instrumental where the latter is concerned. So will actually getting back into the Cavern, when that happens.

Better still: we can do both. And more. We can be open and inclusive, keep ourselves and our goals flexible, arrive at a consensus together. And have fun! See where the ride takes us, y’know?

In that spirit, and because I think the level of response has already demonstrated that the interest is there, I’d like to work on scheduling a chat session so we can talk about the next step, discuss goals, maybe lay out our own roadmap in real-time. Dr. Cris has volunteered MystOnline.info as the venue, which I think is fine. Anyone have a time preference? Weekday night? Weekend?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:36 am 
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I have monday nights free. Thats about it though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:17 am 
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Well, I tend to divide Artists and Writers because of their IC counterparts. A Writer that OOC does textures for trees, IC is still part of a team of Writers and his textures can be 'swapped' for gahro-hevtee. An Artist that OOC does textures for trees, IC is... what? The gardener? He obviously didn't go around applying textured wallpaper to all the trees in the Age. :lol: It's just easier to say that you're an Artist that does some Writing too, or vice versa.

Also remember that the Cartographers were not supposed to be one of the big five in the initial draft, so I doubt they were supposed to take on all the 'conceptual' side of Age making. Remember that picture of the Surveyors' pub was saw in the preview? It was Reteltee who convinced 'Cate' to switch Surveyors for Cartographers because they were an already existing guild.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:00 am 
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Yes, I'll hook on this Guild as well, I'm not an artist (creating out of nothing), but a good craftsman on visuals, I can assemble: putting things together to make it work, I'm creative, a fast learner and not afraid to pick up a new tool. I've studied art on an academic level and had a career as a photography/film/commercial producer (current career is in city government, yes... how Uru lol: art, city and community, that's me! and as a producer cones were my best friends, so I got home first step in cavern some years ago).
I'll follow this discussion the coming months and will try to contribute & discuss.

PS Xanatdul: I love the journey piece, great energy flowing through the song, good composition.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:45 am 
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Ace wrote:
Wow! Didn’t expect so many replies so fast:D

My thoughts on these matters of roles and relationships between the Guilds parallel some of the others than have been expressed, although I seem to have come at them from a different direction. It is my opinion (and I stress, my opinion) that what Cyan was proposing for the GoC in Kirel was not simply a group to make maps, but a group dedicated to handling all the content surrounding player-created Ages-- journals, maps, 2D depictions, back story, sociology and biology of the inhabitants, ecology of the Age beyond what you can see-- all the flesh-out stuff that helps take an Age in the mind of the player from being a limited 3D environment to being a real place, and part of the continuity of the Myst universe. And that they suggested Cartographers as the group to do this because it was historically a Major Guild, and because all of those activities and disciplines could conceivably be conducted under the auspices of making maps. Kirel as it stood is out the window, of course, and whether or not such a group could or should ever exist is open for debate. It might not be desirable, because the disciplines involved are so diverse, and because there are already cool, passionate people of every stripe working within them, ones who have their own ideas about how those disciplines are best served within the community, are who doing an excellent job fulfilling them. And it might not be necessary, given the proven ability of those people to communicate successfully with each other, and given the extent to which all our various arts permeate each other. But I mention it because the absence of such a group-- the lack of the fifth spoke on the wheel, if you will-- results in my view in a lot of creative people who want to contribute, either to MORE or just in general, and who are uncertain about how to do so, in a way that members of the five Major Guilds are not. I’m attracted to the idea of a Guild of Fine Artists because I believe that it could help somewhat in alleviating that issue.


I did not see the Guild of Cartographers in this light at all, mainly because the concept of new guild starting up was always fresh in my mind, not only that it isn't really down to the Cartographers to cover all that. Plant/Wildlife should be covered by the D'ni Zoological Society who have been around before the Guild stuff was being put in place. Journals back history falls under Archivists/Artists area (collaboration work).

Historically Guild of Fine Artists was a major guild until it was broken down.

As for your comments about a searchable db of members and what skills they have and examples of their work, that is an idea I like but not something that can be implemented by myself at the moment due to time constraints (especially now MOUL is returning), what I was planning on having on the forums was specific sections dedicated to specific skills like creative writers, then a person can go to that specific forum if they are looking for someone to fabricate a journal or book to be found in an Age.

I'm seeing the forum as more of a hub for the activity and workings of the Guild and the site as a resource for people to use (tutorials, links, photoshop brushes etc). The site can always be expanded and changed in the future if the need arises anyway.

Ian Atrus wrote:
Also remember that the Cartographers were not supposed to be one of the big five in the initial draft, so I doubt they were supposed to take on all the 'conceptual' side of Age making. Remember that picture of the Surveyors' pub was saw in the preview? It was Reteltee who convinced 'Cate' to switch Surveyors for Cartographers because they were an already existing guild.


Actually that was the Cartographers pub, as far as I can tell the now "surveyors" logo was originally the cartographers, Cyan contacted the current GoC to use their logo instead thus the logo was retconned and became the surveyors.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:50 am 
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Do you mean the logo at the corners of Aitrus's map and on the Minkata tower? That has always been of the Surveyors.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:19 pm 
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Yes I mean that logo, and no it hasn't.

Tweek wrote:
From what I can gather, the Surveyors symbol was originally the Cartographers symbol, but Cyan changed it to be closer to the current Cartographers symbol.


Natales wrote:
Tweek is right about the GoC symbol and I know more than I can say...


source


Last edited by Tweek on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Sign me up!

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