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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:38 am 
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So, if it was suddenly to be wildly popular, and have hundreds of members, it would be a problem? Since Cyan doesn't have much of a guild system set up, I'm curious as to what could be "demeaning" about it?

Unless you mean that Cyan's intention for the Guilds to be run exactly as they were in D'ni, in which case, we have limited knowledge...and none of us started our apprenticeship to the Guild of our social class at age 9, so we're all disqualified anyhow.

And, as far as I know, no one in any Guild, 'official' or not has limited membership to Us And No Other.

Here again comes up this issue of what is a Real Guild, and what's just a Social Group Of Like Minded People, and which gets community recognition and respect, and which doesn't. Seems to me this is something that'll need straightened out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:17 am 
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Are you saying "Real Guild" = Recognition and Respect?
And "Just a Social Group of Like Minded People" = Doesn't

I would have to disagree that Simple Recognition = Respect
But, maybe that's what will need to be straightened out.

But it's all Semantics I guess, no biggie. Pardon my communication skills.
I just have to ask lots of questions to clarify meanings.

I agree there maybe as many social groups as Recognized Guilds. Many people may not want to be in a Guild or feel they have talents for a particular one, but can serve a vital social function in the community. They should at least be equal in cooperating and helping one another. Everyone wants a place in the world/cavern and a purpose. They shouldn't be denied the Recognition and Respect of being an important part of the community.

Also can someone refresh my Memory on what makes a guild official? Canon, Cyan Approval, Popularity, or Practical Function?

THX

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:41 am 
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D'Neile wrote:
....
Also can someone refresh my Memory on what makes a guild official? Canon, Cyan Approval, Popularity, or Practical Function?

THX

A few days ago Tweek made this next post...
Tweek wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't see anywhere in Klaa's post where it said people should live by such structure. Indeed all I happen to see is him offering his opinion.

His point seems to be, does the group need to build a "guild" why can't it just be a group.

Which is something I agree with in general, theres going to be a lot of groups tacking Guild on their name when it isn't really needed.

My response was this comment and I am still waiting for an official definition.
http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewto ... 334#265334
Quote:
I would not mind seeing a Cyan's definition for the word "Guild".


(Joke)
Who knows, very soon I might decide to create a New Guild by the
name of...."The Guild of the Best Question(s) of the Day". (GoBQoD)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:22 am 
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Yeah. I'd love to know what Cyan expects and want the guilds to be like. Then we can all be on the same page. :)

Cyan, define "Guild".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:34 pm 
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D'Neile wrote:
Are you saying "Real Guild" = Recognition and Respect?
And "Just a Social Group of Like Minded People" = Doesn't

I would have to disagree that Simple Recognition = Respect
But, maybe that's what will need to be straightened out.

But it's all Semantics I guess, no biggie. Pardon my communication skills.
I just have to ask lots of questions to clarify meanings.


Nono, is good questions, questions that should be asked. Because it shouldn't be that getting labeled a Real Guild makes you all respected and recognized, and that if you're just Some Group, you don't... but that's what seems to happen, and its a problem.

Recognition and respect should come out of the work you do, what you give to the community (even if that chunk of community is a small group, what are they getting out of it? And how does it mesh with the bigger picture?), and making MORE a positive experience.

And it shouldn't matter what you're called.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Quote:
Because it shouldn't be that getting labeled a Real Guild makes you all respected and recognized, and that if you're just Some Group, you don't... but that's what seems to happen, and its a problem.


Solution: let any group call themselves a Guild if they want.

Conveniently, this is the solution we already have, because -- right now -- who's going to stop you?

"A Guild is a group of people cooperating on a goal."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Being a "Guild" doesn't, and *shouldn't*, entitle a Group to any more "respect" than any other "Group". There have been quite a few non-Guild "Groups" in Uru: The Great Tree, the Cavern Activities Team / D'ni League of Activities, the Cavern Choir, the D'ni Zoological Society, the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, etc. While some like the DLF might well become a Guild at some point, each of these Groups has had quite a lot of activity, success, membership, & respect, *without* the specific title of "Guild".

The reason the above-mentioned groups got "respect" w/out being a "Guild" is because of the *quality* of the organizations themselves, and the *quality* of their work/activities. There have also been several Groups that just didn't fly, because they weren't well organized, well thought-out, or effective. Such Groups would fail even if called a "Guild". That's because what a Group is *called* isn't ultimately the important thing---it's what the Group *does* that matters.

As for what a "Guild" is, I really got the impression that, amongst the various already-existing Groups, Cyan had the DRC announce the formation of the Guilds to make them a *special* class of Groups. By "special" I don't mean "superior", "privileged", or "first-class". Only that they were meant to be a bit different---unique, and set-apart. And above all, *uniform*. Why would certain groups, specifically named by the DRC, be given the title of "Guild" if they were just random Groups, with no similarities? Specifically organizing "The D'ni Guilds" gave me the impression that they would be basically organized like the original D'ni Guilds. Obviously the Guilds can't be *exactly* like the original D'ni Guilds (like Eleri said, we're all waaaaay too old to begin our apprenticeship in those ;)), but I fully expected each of the Guilds to *share* a basic structure in function & leadership (only slightly modified for each Guild's purpose). Otherwise, they're no more similar to each other than to any other Group.

What really leads me to believe this is what Cyan intended is that for quite a while, they asked us NOT to call any of our organizations a "Guild". They made an "exception" for the Guild of Greeters, because the GoG organized themselves & started working back in the Uru Prologue before Cyan "restricted" the use of the title "Guild". I remember back in 2003, when the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship first formed, we were debating what to call ourselves. I was one of those who wanted us to take on the title of "Guild of Linguists", previously used by the Riedl-brothers' website. But then Cyan made their announcement, and we---as well as the rest of the Community---kind of assumed that Cyan had something special planned for the "Guilds". And then this past year, the DRC announced the formation of 5 specific Guilds. It just really feels like they have a particular plan in mind.

I still think they *do* have something specific, unique, & uniform in mind. But they haven't had a lot of time to address it, because they were so busy this last year trying to get the next month's content-release ready w/a limited staff, and then MO:UL closed down. And also, I really think they wanted to leave some of it up to us. Not all of it, but it really is a bit of a test for this Community to see if we can take the initiative to organize ourselves. But between the closing of Uru, the ambiguity of what MORE will be, confusion of what constitutes a "Guild", and worries about corruption in hierarchal structures, we've kind of held back, even within the "established" Guilds.

Obviously Cyan is busy & under-staffed, but at this point I think we NEED them to tell us what they've had in mind for the "D'ni Guilds" in Uru. Even if they still want to leave some of it up to us, they need to tell us where *they* stand, and what's in *our* "jurisdiction" to decide.

</unexpected-epistle>

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:16 pm 
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interesting discussion, seems very worthwhile to have this kind of in depth talk about what, how, and so forth about an important part of the Restoration. Great posts by everyone. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:29 am 
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Just between you and me.

Lets suppose that one day a good friend who knows you love apples
does invite you to visit his top secret garden.

Once in the garden he shows you a special apple tree. You can see some
mighty nice looking apples but he tells you that you are not allowed to have/taste
those apples.

Just between you and me, do you beleive that you are suppose to obey without questions
and deny (to yourself) the far streched possibility of tasting one of those apples ?????


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:22 am 
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Hmmm, How Zen, LOL

You said friend. not Tyrant. So probably out of respect for your Friends wishes, you'd leave his apples alone.
Wutt kinda apples are they? I may not like them unless they are Golden Delicious, or Gala's. And am I even hungry?
If they Tyrant says NO just to tick you off then maybe I'd sneak one when he wasn't looking just to have the satifaction of knowing he aint all that.
Maybe I would make my Own top secret garden and grow my own apples that he can't have. Cuz no friend of mine would tell me what I could and Couldn't do. :lol:

I just love thinky things, :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:31 am 
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Now, if Cyan came along and said "Please, let us be the ones to designate groups with the name Guild", that would be OK with me.

Although I would hope they would avoid some of the chaos of the previous Guilds announcement.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:20 am 
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Eleri wrote:
Now, if Cyan came along and said "Please, let us be the ones to designate groups with the name Guild", that would be OK with me.

Although I would hope they would avoid some of the chaos of the previous Guilds announcement.

Now, now what do you know ?!?!

The snake has completed its circle and is biting its own tail. :lol: :P :lol:

At the beginning I told Eleri to go for it and the same advice still hold.

If you can imagine a Guild in your mind, a Guild it has to be, recognized or not.

That is the real power of "creation".


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:21 am 
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I can be awfly Ouroborotic at times, yes :) Sorta like neurotic, but twistier.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:41 am 
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Creative mind to "Imaginatic mind" to Active mind.

It is all about "making/taking" a decision and not waiting
for the approval of your known "alternate universe".

And, yep, it can be frightening at times.

If you consider the law of action plus an opposite and equal reaction,
then you know you are on the right path ....
if you see this............................... Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:35 pm 
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I'd say anybody who wish to and is able to collect a group of like-minded people together can call their group whatever they wish. It used to be Hood, then Shard, then Bevin, and now Guild is the buzz word. Personally I don't mind it and I would not go into a discussion about it of "name calling"... as long as you are happy in your group, what difference does it make what it is called?

Murray and I used to "belong" to H'uru which was our courting ground, later we "inherited" Alpha Blue, and later still the two sort of amalgamated... we are all still very much friends and making new ones all the time, but we shall never call ourselves a Guild. After all, the only "purpose" of this group is to share friendship.
On a much larger scale, the same applies to Uru Obsession, they too are not a Guild, but a place to hang out. It doesn't make it less or more important than other groups, imo. There are several such groups... none are guilds.

Personally I have no interest whatsoever in the Guild of Illusionists (I think? too lazy to read back lol) but I am fine with others who enjoy that sort of thing. I couldn't role-play or pretend for the life of me, I am too much involved in bits & bytes to be able to see Uru as "real", and I admire its beauty in its very own perspective. But if other enjoy it more that way, I'm all for that and if I happen to see you online, remind me of your wishes!

/end of rambling


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