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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:22 am 
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My own Observations: I am wrong? Is there room for a better system? Better defined roles?
Some posts I have read, expressed that many Uru Explorers seem to be of a mostly single minded nature, lone wolf types who loved those stand alone Myst games more than Uru. :oops: I myself stand guilty as accused! :oops:
:twisted: Other types seem to cause the uru community to suffer fragmentation. :twisted: Guilty again without wanting to be intentionally.
The Guilds evolutionary struggles to define their Guilds roles and limits in working with one other turned out mismash.
:? They seem to compete with one another in replicating places for Ages to be built & tested. :?
:shock: Some might might remember witness the bumpy road of ego power struggles the process turned out to be. :shock:
I am unable see any defined lines and rolls to which they work their particular function as one would expect to have seen in the true D'ni traditions.
Instead, our Guilds system seems blurred from each trying be everything to and for all the community.
One has to wonder how Cyan might have organized them individually into their particular functions and roles.
The whole thing seems parlyzed in fears of to much power and authority for any one Guild or system.
:?: Where is the Cyan King! :?: :roll:

My own thoughts; Half Facetious Outline
Guild of Messengers being the place where the other guilds post announcements ,events, ect...
Guild of Writers being where the story and age get built.
Guild of Maintainers being the place ages get sent to be tested and refined for release.
Guild of Cartographers being where the writers send ideas to be mapped into visuals to aid building.
Guild of Greeters hmmm With out OP URU? :roll:

I just have to think the current Guild system is not what Cyan had in mind nor would have done.
Seems so dysfuntional and scatters the uru community into drawing lines.

To end on a more positive note. Yes! They have worked very hard to overcome lots of problems.
Yes! They have accomplished and organized a lot. 96 Ages already created and counting about 14 game quality..
Can't take that away from them! Surviving the uncertainty of Open Source returning the Online game.

POST is not to put them down but inject opinions for improving them, helping them.
Create a uru community mirror for them to see themselves in the eyes of uru explorers from their posted opinions and views of them. Post frustrations, disappointment and the POSITIVE PLEASE !


Last edited by Jahmen on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:18 am 
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There needs to be a unified interguild entity to collectively bind them. I had the spark of idea about that and not so long ago approached several people I would trust with anything. They all declined because I think it's just too loaded an issue when you have a real life to live. It is a daunting task, not the least of which is trust, cooperation and sharing resources when with some things there can be only one owner. The core needs ultimate trust and must be capable of transparently honoring the responsibilty. Tough to find.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:49 am 
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Last edited by Artic_Wagon on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:22 am 
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I suspect Cyan never anticipated the guilds being anything like what we see. I have never heard it expressed by Rand whether the guilds were a story device to just add color to the D’ni or was a pot device to add tension and may be explain some in-game happenings.

All my experience tells me all the guilds formed by fans with similar interests coming together to help people or accomplish something. None of the guilds have been more than a group of likeminded fans.

Today fans are still gathering in likeminded groups and doing their things. The fan base has spread to several virtual worlds. Jeff in Eder D’Uru is forming a new set of guilds and experimenting to see how well new structures may work and evolve. Again there are new fan needs in SL that never existed or were possible for players to participate in. The Guild of Maintainers is spreading through virtual worlds where they can be of service to builders.

The existing OOC guilds have been pretty well defined. But it does not really matter how we define the guilds or describe their job descriptions. If you have ever looked at what the GoC was doing 2004, you will see it was more than just mapping. When you look at the GoW you see programmers (which guild do they fit in?), fine artists (why aren’t they over at GoFA?), story writers, people making maps, 3D modelers, people working with Plasma and server side code and more. Look at the GoMa and you find the same thing, a wide range of activities.

The point here is no matter how you describe the guilds and their activities; almost every guild has someone involved in nearly every aspect of the game’s creative process. The guilds are an abstract thing we use as a handy fun way for people to work together. They formed for natural reasons and the fans adopted the story IC names they liked and thought fit. At best they can only be described as loosely descriptive.

If one were to refine that, what would we gain for the effort?

…JWP rips on Jahmen in another thread for being totalitarian and then puts forth the idea of an inter-guild system to bind them… (I’m teasing JWP)

@Jahmen, if you think there is a better way to run the guilds, put your ideas forward, do the work to set it up and if it is a workable idea and better, people will use it. JWP’s OpenUru.org is an excellent example. He did not get lots of support. I being one of the ones going ...another forum? But, he persisted and OU is filling a need and moving several subjects ahead.

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Last edited by Nalates on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Guild distinctions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Last edited by Jahmen on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Jahmen, whether your ideas for building better teams are good or not, I'm not sure what they have to do with "Guilds" in the context of the Uru universe. Guilds should play a role in Uru, rather than merely be sources of fan labor for an open source software product. Until there is a role for Guilds inside the Uru world, then my personal opinion is that it is silly to even call them "Guilds". This was brought home with great force when Cyan opened up the Guild Halls. They were .... different colors?!?!?!

As for Frisky Badger's point, I think the utter lack of Cyan's (open) involvement in building the Guilds basically feeds that paranoia. Given that, calling your group the Guild of Anything gives the appearance of power grabbing, D'ni history or not. I say, dismantle the Guilds, reform them exactly as they are, and call them Clubs, because that's what they are.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:14 pm 
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This is so interesting that this conversation is taking place, especially to me, because this is just the sort of gap I once tried to fill with the Assembly of Guilds forum.

That failed for several reasons, three of which being the fact that the need wasn't fully developed, the support just wasn't there, and there was too much confusion between IC and OOC matters. But at this point, it seems like that sort of thing is really what is needed-- not even so much to "organize" the Guilds, but more provide a platform for intra-Guild communication. On a whole, coordinating conversations between whole groups is not only hard, but isn't even happening at all. Most communication between the Guilds at this point is done via the GM or on an individual scale, and this is perfectly fine. But for broad topics like cross-Guild relationships, Guild structure, and cooperation, one almost needs a Guild Hall just to get everyone in one place long enough to discuss it.

This is partly what bothered me about the "Guild Pubs". They served a purpose, but while it was nice for the Guilds to have a place dedicated to congregating in-game, the fact that there was no way for these groups to coalesce in one place forced communication onto the forum, thus separating it from the game entirely. And once Cyan made the Guild forum, the AoG's purpose became defunct.

The one good thing that came out of the AoG was the Guild of Maintainers. We gave them a home and a place to collect and organize before they moved on. So at this point, would "another forum" be beneficial to intra-Guild communication? Yes and no, because if it's not already being attempted here on this forum, there's no reason to believe that having another place to do it will cause people to want to do it.

Now that said, much like JWPlatt's insistence on creating the OU forum, the need wasn't recognized until the solution was in place. Perhaps intra-Guild communication is a similar matter. One might also wonder what intra-Guild communication on a larger scale is even necessary at all, and the answer to that is this thread's very existence. It feels like people aren't satisfied with the current Guild structure and their relationships with each other. But if this is so, the only way something can be done about it is if the Guilds start talking to each other.

JW is right in pointing out that the reason change isn't really happening is because nobody wants to touch the issue. People's outrage at "power-grabbing" and "egos" tends to scare people off. Quite frankly it's disgusting. This is a game we're talking about. We're trying to keep a venue of entertainment alive, and yet the moment someone steps up to try and move things forward, certain people assume the worst and cry loudly every chance they get.

Perhaps if people took a moment to get to know the leaders they have so much distaste for, and examine the motives behind every action instead of translating fictional game lore onto real-life groups, their fears would be alleviated.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:16 pm 
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The Guild of Maintainers greatly appreciated the hospitality of the Assembly of Guilds forums, Calam! It truly was the birthplace of GoMa! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:25 pm 
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[spoiler=Do you remember the speech from Dr. Watson?]

Speech Dr Watson 9-12-2007
Good afternoon.
I've been asked for my advice on many issues since my recent return. I really
haven't had time to get caught up on everything that 's been happening here, but
I sat down this morning and attempted to come up with some kind of statement on
the issues that have been brought to my attention.
First, the Guilds. I've been told that there are folks who are very upset that
the DRC are attempting to follow the D'ni lead in taking steps to re-form the
Guilds. They say that the Guilds are "bad", that they inevitably lead to Pride.
The Guilds are not inherently bad in and of themselves. Those who blame "the
Guilds" for the Fall of D'ni have not understood Yeesha's words and have missed
her point completely. The Guilds provided stability and structure for the D'ni
culture, which allowed their civilization to thrive for tens of thousands of
years. The problem with the Guilds in D'ni history is the same thing that's the
problem here in the Cavern today: people. More specifically: our Pride. The very
lesson that Yeesha has repeatedly attempted to teach us.
We already have our own problems of Pride. We haven't needed the Guilds for
that. If things are going to be different this time around, it's up to all of
us, including you Explorers, to choose to be more responsible than the D'ni were
at the time of the Fall.
Just as the Bahro are finding out right now with their newly-found freedoms - it
all comes down to the choices we make. Frankly, from what I've been hearing,
there are many Explorers who are not ready for this responsibility. What's the
alternative? Learn to work together. Stop complaining when things are not
exactly as you'd like them to be. Stop bickering among yourselves. Stop choosing
to divide yourselves. There is much more at stake here than our egos. You do
have the ability to choose to work together. Make that choice.
As for the Cavern, I was asked yesterday if we should all leave the Cavern, so
let me clarify my position. When the Restoration first began, what seems like
decades ago, I gave another speech. In that speech, I explained that I felt
"Called" here. I said that this Cavern was meant to be inhabited, and that it
was our intent to make it habitable once again. (oops, repeating) I said that
this Cavern was meant to be inhabited, and that it was our intent to make it
habitable once again. I was convinced of it. I was sure that the warnings of
Atrus did not apply to those of us from the Surface. I no longer believe that is
the case. But do not misunderstand me, I am still drawn here, but now I'm drawn
to learn the lessons that this Cavern has to teach me. But I will apply those
lessons elsewhere. No longer is it my goal to restore this place with the hope
of reinhabiting it. That is where the DRC and I differ in our opinions. Of
course, I'm perfectly willing to admit that it may turn out that I am wrong;
that they are right. Should we leave, then? No. I think that would be just as
grave an error. As I said, this Cavern still has much to teach us.
But what of the Bahro? The conflict that is going on all around us here in the
Cavern and in many of the Ages? I've been asked why the "bad" Bahro are
attacking us. Is it because they think we're the D'ni? no, I don't think that's
the case. In fact, after hearing of the destruction in Negilahn from Douglas
Sharper, I think it's clear that the Bahro who have chosen to become bent on
destruction are completely indiscriminate about what they destroy. What did the
animals around the pods ever do to the Bahro? They clearly weren't killed for
food. It seems to be destruction simply for the sake of destruction. Cruelty for
the sake of cruelty. they seem to do it just because they can. And the Bahro who
killed Wheely, from the description of events that Michael has given me,
specifically kept her alive while she was trapped. My only conclusion from that
behavior is that it was studying her or toying with her. Which immediately
brings to mind the many Bahro who received a very similar treatment from a D’ni
man who lived in Noloben named Esher. I'm told the Bahro even specifically
attempted to say the word "Noloben" before it attacked her. But what can we do
about the "bad" Bahro? Not much. For now, we are protected. The "good" Bahro
protecting us have created a grand deception for our peace of mind - an illusion
that all is well here in the Cavern and the Ages.
We now know that this is not the case, but how much longer will their protection
last? A week? A month? a year? a decade? a century? I have no idea. Funny thing
about prophecies... they don't always come with an expiration date. But we have
been told that "Destruction is coming." I believe specifically that that
destruction is coming to the Cavern, but I could be wrong about that, too. It is
entirely possible that the "destruction" is a great deal larger than that.
Either way, we need to use the time we are being given to "Find a way. Make a
home." How can we do that? That's where the Guilds come in. We have got to work
together. It will not happen overnight. It will likely take many years, in fact.
But I believe the Guilds are the key.
Yeesha has already been to hundreds of Ages, looking for something, anything,
that might help to end the Bahro conflict, or, at the very least, help to
protect us from it in case there comes a time when the "good" Bahro are no
longer able to. As time passes, it grows increasingly unlikely that anything is
going to be found in an Age the D'ni have or had access to. And so, we are going
to need new Ages at some point. There are those among the Explorers who may
eventually be able to assist in that regard. That is the direction I believe we
must take. The Guilds (and even the Explorers who are not interested in joining
a Guild) will have to work together: writing, maintaining, mapping, and
exploring those new Ages. It is a grand undertaking. And much of it depends on
you Explorers, and how well you choose to work together. Will we be up to the
challenge? That definitely remains to be seen. I hope we are.
Thank you for your kind attention.
[/spoiler]


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:29 am 
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