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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:47 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:56 pm 
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Location: Digging around in the dusty archives, uncovering Uru history.
/me takes a deep breath and begins writing another post which will likely be ignored...

Well, first a decision must be made on which direction to take. There are a few options:

a.) Waste time trying to change the make-up of the guilds to suit your vision;
b.) Give up on the current guilds and start your own;
c.) Find a way to bring the guilds & other groups together to work as a cohesive unit to prepare for Open Uru;
d.) Leave things as they are and let the chips fall where they may...

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:06 pm 
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@Nalates:

I never did manage to get my head around how Jahmen would like to tackle the things he sees as a problem. I can only surmise it involves a more rigid structure, gathering tightly defined guilds under a common roof, unlike the current more-or-less egalitarian independent groups.

We'll see once he's got something up, I suppose. :7


@JWPlatt:

If you are referring to Jahmen's stated intentions, he mentioned, over at the GoW, that he is currently learning webdesign and forum management, which suggests he does not exactly begin from a position of strength. Maybe he could thrive under your wing? :7


@Tai'lahr:

Why is it that so many people (well, some few in this thread anyway) assume that the guilds are somehow striving in different directions, or even working against eachother? Are you sure you are passing judgement on valid grounds?


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 1:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Yes, I see what Tai'lahr means about 'suggesting' rather than 'judging', when she offered the four options:

a.) Waste time trying to change the make-up of the guilds to suit your vision;
b.) Give up on the current guilds and start your own;
c.) Find a way to bring the guilds & other groups together to work as a cohesive unit to prepare for Open Uru;
d.) Leave things as they are and let the chips fall where they may...

My own option would be a fifth one:
e.) For GoW to rise above its original dedication to breaking code (which did indeed serve GoW programmers in the beginning) to a better balanced vision of what it takes to make new ages.

That was the purpose of every one of my messages on the GoW, up to the time, a few months ago, when I was pretty well ridden out of town on a rail.

What? Do I hear bystanders thinking that I must be too delicate and could not take the heat of legitimate debate?
I don't see it that way. And I do not feel like arguing the issue again – although, for a time I kept all the messages and re-read them to see if my own vision of things had become clouded. The re-read proved to me that there were expletive on many fronts, some of them mine, but what dominated was that those who control the speech of the GoW (and several other forums) were sending protests to the GoW mods about my improprieties. Almost every other message they were attacking behind the scenes. I think the last protest against me was for a message of mine re Bob the Builder. I nicknamed him 'ReBar' in my post, a post which was applauding his work. It was entirely friendly and joking on my part. But to the witch hunting crew, it was taken as another example of breaking their rules. The mod said he thought it was wrong to do so, but he would have to censure me (again; there were many). His hands were tied by the crew behind the scenes.

That much is, more or less, a normal picture of human nature. And truly, all it means to me is that GoW is determined to reject any talents I might offer -- unless I stopped criticizing their operation. Again, that is just the way things work.
However – and this is the point – it is this very same attitude which rejected D'eau's (sp?) superb work. Several people will remember that when D'eau presented his highly refined graphics, it enraged several members of the GoW. They drove D'eau off too. Yes. That is the truth, for those who have not heard.
The real problem at the time was, I do believe, that D'eau's work was so much better than GoW's age work, that certain childish minds could not accept the comparison. Very childish minds. But they were able to run off someone who really was doing high quality – Riven quality – graphics.

I am sure you can see where this leads.

In actuality, it was such an egregious example of bad thinking, that those with a bit of maturity had to back off this super protectionist stance – but only a little. Probably, someone apologized to D'eau. I do not know. I corresponded with him a couple of times after the rejection, and he was quite disappointed.

THE POINT
What this event really illustrates is not so much that the mind set of code writing controls the thinking of the GoW, but really, it is that a great deal more is involved in Age Writing than just the engines.
To be sure, the mechanics of the game engines are essential, difficult, and expensive to produce. But please do not resort to the sophomoric remark that, without the code you can't have a game.
There is, however, a real point in believing and acting like a true Age requires more than an engine running ugly graphics.
Everyone knows this. It has been mentioned on the GoW forum many times.
But as of the time I was asked to leave town (for defending beautiful graphics), this frigid set of mind still had control over the hard working programmers and there was no understanding at all of how graphics and storyline were going to be brought into the locked shower room of code breaking.

PS
I have heard that the GoW ages are getting better. I truly hope so.
As a comparison, for those who may wonder what I mean by good graphics, I would say that at the top of the graphics chain, D'eau's work was as good as Cyan's (graphics only). I never saw D'eau's developed story with characters and a plan for engaging explorers.
Way below the top there are the graphics of something like Rhem. I have heard people exclaim over it, but probably even the satisfied ones would not say it was as good as Myst – although, if you ignore Rhem's lack of story line, it was not far below the original Myst graphics.
But of course, Rhem is not in the same league with Riven at any level.
Riven is tops.
That is the quick summary of what I mean by graphic quality.

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:17 am 
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...

I am very confused now.
I think you and I may observe the GoW with two different preconceptions.

First, I can't say I have ever noticed any moderation, other than the splitting/moving of threads, as topics diverge. Ok, it's not like I refresh every forum page every five minutes 24/7, nor do I know what people say in private, but still, I can't recall seeing censorship taking place.

I see the guild as what you might call a collective of artists - everybody are equal in every way other than that each person has her/his own track records, to show for themselves.

There is no such thing as a GoW age - only ages from people, who happen to be posting at the GoW forum, which, in conjunction with the wiki, is simply a place where we can discuss, share and help eachother. One individual, Johnee, has been posting some quite stunning shots from his age Breldur, recently. Breldur is HIS age, not the GoW's and the GoW (which is all of us, not some shadowy formal governing body) does not lay claims to any ages, that I know of.

Given the above, I fail to see how it is in anybody's power to reject anything.
Are you under the impression that you have to get an age concept approved by some sort of council, which will then take active hand in its conception? That is just not the case (for all that there was early talk about a "showcase" age and such). Jahmen's guilds may come to work that way, I don't know, but "in" the GoW, if I have an idea for an age and want a team to work on that; then it's up to me to get people interested in joining the project (..and project management is just as delegateable as any other task).
If one want to handpick, rather than thowing out an open request for applications, there is a wiki page, listing members, with info on what skills they have and whether they are available.

What I saw in Deux's case, was him presenting screenshots and other images, that wowed everybody and mentioning that some help would be nice, with other elements of agebuilding than the visuals -- I think, however, he phrased it as a suggestion that it would be impossible for one person to singlehandedly do an age, rather than a request for interested team members to apply, which rightfully drew some responses. Nobody that I know of believe a team of skilled specialists would be somehow inferior to any lone wolf - it's just that when it appears the imperative /is/ being issued, there is bound to be repercussions. That discussion for some unfathomable reason escalated, circling around the semantic-ish misunderstanding at its heart, without anyone ever noticing it.

Any negative jealousy, however, must have whooshed right over my head. There was one fellow who somewhat impolitely called for a release of the age so far -- that would be the closest I can recall.

Does anyone know what became of Deux? I hope he's still into Uru and agebuilding and that we get to visit Eh'ko one of these days.


As for yourself; you *did* have a little bit of a team going, didn't you? As I recall, your work expanded greatly on an age idea from another member, taking the bay and industry he'd envisioned and adding a huge migration from an old city to a new one, following a disaster. Can't recall the connection to the temple on an atoll between, with some sort of line-of-sight based puzzle. We were following in the footsteps of a visiting architect student, weren't we?
I am assuming you and the other guy were working together on the concept and story and you also had one modeller on board...?
Are you still working on it? (I hope so)

At any rate, I think it's safe to say that nobody ever thought agebuilding was only about programming.


EDIT: I am adding a link to ReBar's brilliant "Turning ideas into ages" WIKI article. It also links to the personell roster, I mentioned. (..in which, by the way, you, pappou, still have an entry :). I, myself, don't though, seing as I have no skills.)

http://www.guildofwriters.com/wiki/Turn ... _Into_Ages

I'd also like to invite you and everybody else to join a little experimental agewriting thing that I have kicked off, requiring just as much or little effort from each participant, as they feel like. Contributions can be ANYthing - certainly not just modelling:

http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... =11&t=2881

Let's all try to turn this into a coherent beautiful age, together... or an explosion in a tropical bird shop -who knows... :)


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:16 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:42 pm 
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