MOUL GUILDS - Did they really get them right?

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:14 am

First, it is not Jahmen's responsibility to provide a solution just because he mentions the need, though he seems to have accepted the challenge. The best thing he could do, absent the understandable and complete lack of solution thus far in Uru's history, is organize a good team to make an attempt. That does not preclude numerous other groups from doing the same. No matter who you are, there are always people who could be organized to do it better than you could do it alone. Don't put this all on Jahmen's head. The best thing you all could do is offer constructive ideas, opinions and criticisms which, for example, look something like "I totally disagree but what do you think of my idea where ..."

I've found it valuable to take the point of view that no matter how many people disagree with you, whether it's one or one million, their weight of opinion is inconsequential when there are still eight billion (and counting) others you haven't heard from. The same goes for when you find people are agreeing with you. That's not always a good thing either. It gives one the proper scope to act with perspective in your dealings and responses. Those who are offensive and attacking, or those who are defensive and hurt, do not understand the sheer scope of opportunity available to anyone with a vision. You'll get more courage by finding your independence from opinion, but you still should listen and achieve balance. Yet even as I write these words, I too remain unwilling to go with my own little spark because if I stop to pet a kitty, there are some who will think I want to eat it - and I have enough to do already.

It is pointless and counterproductive to attack someone who takes the lead, trying to promote their solution. It is just as pointless and counterproductive to allow others to block your vision just because a few or a few million disagree. "Powergrab" is probably just a projection of jealousy when people see someone trying to use what is effectively a cup of water from their part of the ocean. Especially when you consider there is no power here to grab. None of us has any authority. We are what we make of ourselves. There could be twenty Guilds of Writers all competing for the so-called power and it would mean nothing except maybe some good competition. Do you really think it's all that unlikely in a world with a population of eight billion when the source is released? This is only part of what open source brings with it. If you all would like to establish your place with Uru in the open source market, I recommend a unified strength in numbers, talent and good attitude before someone who actually has an organized plan becomes more attractive to a larger world.

To the only people or groups who are destined to help find solutions in a community without inherent authority, go with what you believe, darn the torpedoes, etc, etc. I will use Zardoz's word again - because it's a good one - "persuade" us.

Nalates · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:17 am

Jahmen, I'm not hating you. I'm challenging the ideas underlying your suggestions. I'm not even attacking you.

JWP is right and has proved his statements by his actions. You don't need to listen to me.

Your ideas may be good. I think there are better possibilities if one looks at the foundation of the thoughts. I also think your suggestions do not take into account what is going on now and I am not at all sure you understand how the guilds actually work. But why would those interested in writing ages take on a training duty? And those interested in testing, same question? For your purposes none of that may matter.

You see what appears to be a problem to you. Others agree and I do to some point. However, if you see a need, fill it. Writing what others can do to fix their problems is ok. I just think one has to include reasons and benefits for those currently involved to move them to solve what you see as a problem. Without that I doubt they will change. Because they are in contact with each other, they don’t have a communication problem. The same is true of you want others to participate.

When looking at ways for the guilds to train new players in age building, aren’t you making a lot of presuppositions? That does not mean it is not a good idea. It sounds like quite an effort. What if we expend that kind of effort and no one uses the system to learn age building? How many want to learn? Not just how many you or I think want to learn.

I’ll suggest of 13k signed up here (knock off 3k for duplicates) and the few dozen age builders we have (say 144… any good info on this number, anyone?) plus the people in THERE and SL that are building (say another 100) then only 2.4% of the players are interested in building ages.

May be effort would be better spent planning a better age building system than building a training system for the rather complex system we have? …and for 2.4%... may be not. The nice thing about the community is you can do whatever you want to do.

JWP didn’t listen to me and we have OU, a good thing. I did not get behind it and start recommending it to people until I saw it working. You can expect the same from me on re-organizing guilds unless I see a benefit.

Jahmen · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:15 am

A SOLUTION? I can give it a shot! Worst case, it doesn’t work.

Doubtful I have one. Would you settle for some more suggestions?

Noting: I deleted my initial Post prior to Nalates to try to simplify it.

Nalates Wrote:

Quote:

Jahmen, I'm not hating you. I'm challenging the ideas underlying your suggestions. I'm not even attacking you.

I know, Nalates. I was just trying to be funny. Teasing take on ”Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful”
And I know you are challenging me to put up or shut up. I have no problems with that.
Easy to spark off posts to suggest things. Another to take action and do something about it!

Nalates Wrote:

Quote:

What if we expend that kind of effort and no one uses the system to learn age building?

Your question had me realize that the "System" I was suggesting didn’t come across clearly in my first Post presentation as to all it should do. I did a rush post foolishly. While I believe Age building to be at the center of Open Source Uru Game success. It is not the heart of the Uru Community that has sustained its resurrections. The System is to create a means to direct explorers interested in contributing to Open Source by providing the direction to places and tasks that fit their talents and abilities, not wasting the explorer resource.
The System design was to incorporate all explorers potential abilities beyond just Age building.
The benefits to all who build and maintain their part of the system would come from acquiring explorers and their skills to fit the many tasks and positions within each group. The System was to be multi-tasked with explorer volunteer placement program and learning. As Guild and non-guild groups grow, so does the need for explorers to fill tasks created from growth.

Objectives: Dr.Watsons Speech.
The Guilds provided stability and structure for the D'ni culture, which allowed their civilization to thrive for tens of thousands of years. The problem with the Guilds in D'ni history is the same thing that's the problem here in the Cavern today: people. More specifically: our Pride. The very
lesson that Yeesha has repeatedly attempted to teach us.

Guilds and non-guild groups should provide stability and structure for Open Source Uru - Explorer Community to build Ages and better supported Guild & non-guild groups system for recruiting explorers talents. I conjecture that the D’ni Guilds developed a interdependent system that required them to communicate collectively, constantly, daily to an over-all Guilds "group" task project.
I am not saying the MOUL guilds don’t work together, but that they might improve on it.
Perhaps a stronger common thread of over-all interest to engage everyone interest collectively enough in a way the requires them to be in constant communication on a project.
I suggest that Guilds and non-Guilds, who want to be a part of the Uru Community collective for building Ages and the betterment of the guild and non-guild abilities, we all look beyond pride “individual interests”and come together with a common interest project.

A Uru Community Project with MOUL Guild and NON Guild groups coming together.
All work together to create a “System” that would help grow all of the uru community collectively. A System that would allow each to improve their strengths and explorers resources. A System that influence how Open Source Uru grows by allowing individual explorer choices to shape it collectively. I always saw the MOUL Guilds and others working within the same System to provide places for the tools to be kept and used by explorers to make and do things with. Places explorers can meet and learn together, helping to teach other explorers who follow in their foot steps to learn. It has been said the best way to learn is to teach.

Nalates Wrote:

Quote:

JWP is right and has proved his statements by his actions. You don't need to listen to me.

I respectfully disagree with you Nalates! I do need to listen to you and everyone, regardless if we agree.

Quote:

include reasons and benefits for those currently involved to move them to solve what you see as a problem.

I hope what is here in my post is a good start. That you see the benefit I am trying to get across with my suggested System being more than just about Age building, but also Uru Community Building with Guild & Non-Guild groups.

Quote:

It sounds like quite an effort.

Some ways I think so and in other ways maybe not. I was hoping if I build on what is in place and incorporate it within a user friendly System. Like how WINDOWS revolutionized Computer use, the System I am proposing will do the same for the Uru Community. I will try to get a small example working. Maybe with seeing something, they can see to real potential for investing into it.
Guessing I am going to be very busy for sometime to come.

P.S. Nalates, I think your calculations on active explorers was generously optimistic.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:42 am

Jahmen wrote:

Objectives: Dr.Watsons Speech.
The Guilds provided stability and structure for the D'ni culture, which allowed their civilization to thrive for tens of thousands of years. The problem with the Guilds in D'ni history is the same thing that's the problem here in the Cavern today: people. More specifically: our Pride. The very lesson that Yeesha has repeatedly attempted to teach us.
...

I conjecture that the D’ni Guilds developed a interdependent system that required them to communicate collectively, constantly, daily to an over-all Guilds "group" task project.

Paramount to a successful Open Source Uru venture is being grounded in reality. The D'ni Guilds are made up. And badly made up, at that. Dr. Watson's speech, for me at least, was the low point of MOUL. The sight of a barely disguised game developer lecturing his customers to play nicely in his sandbox was silly.

The cream of Open Source will rise to the top, but only if we don't strangle it before it gets off the ground. (I've got lots more metaphors where those came from...) Your ideas are interesting, Jahmen. Put them into action, and let's see what happens. But don't be disappointed if some choose to follow others, or some choose to go their own way. The strength of this community is its diversity, not its unity. Open Source needs creative destruction, not academic discourse. Just do it.

Artic_Wagon · **Joined:** Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm **Posts:** 4095

The Guild of Messengers and then me had a go at it but
it did not last long. I was "politely" told to quit trying.

In those days many posts were deleted in parallel topics. :roll:

My trial: http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=266179#266179

At page # 4 (above link), you will see that Alahmnat was asking for help and
even today, he is still asking for it...
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=290519#290519

I really wish Jahmen & Alahmnat will be luckier than I was.

Jahmen · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:03 pm

The Reminders From The Past
greydragon Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:49 pm — Post subject: The Guilds

greydragon wrote:

Quote:

Remember, the guild system will change in the future. Feel free to talk to each other about what you would like to see in a guild system. Cyan has a plan for what it wants the system to be and we hope to show you that plan in the future.

Eleri wrote:

Quote:

Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?

greydragon Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:54 pm — Post subject:

Eleri wrote:

Quote:

Examining these two statements, it seems Cyan is saying:

"Go ahead and plan, and make a Guild of *whatever*, but we'll be making our own system in the future, when we're ready."

Yep

Quote:

What assurances do any of us have that any effort put towards building a guild, of any structure, will mean anything when Cyan launches 'official' Guilds?

None

Quote:

Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?

Who's asking you? Guilds will be months / years off.

Quote:

Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?

You tell me. Even if Cyan came out today and said stop organizing guilds people would still do it.

Cyan is just giving you a heads up that Cyan version of the guild system might be different then the one produced by the fans.

So proceed at your own risk.

This threads consensus ran into plod ahead explorers to make the guilds and try to get them to work with the idea Cyan might adopt them.
At this point, I think what Cyan will or won't do with the guilds is very up in the air due to financial reasons alone.

Arctic_Wagon I looked through what ya posted. What struck me about many of the attempts I found for getting over all communication system for the guilds to work together in place. Was that the purpose and reasons behind them to do so was not something any of them wanted to do. Basically, there was little in it for any of them to care enough to bother. Why share? For what? We do this, so you go do that! We have what we want! Then those fears someone might have to give something up.

What was needed I still believe, is something of mutual benefit for all of them to work at! Something that all of them want to do. Because those that don’t, will get left behind. It must be something that works so well, that to not have it is a huge disadvantage. Something that works because it serves the Guilds and serves the Uru explorers needs.
Something like that would be like having Cyan approval.

zardoz wrote

Quote:

Paramount to a successful Open Source Uru venture is being grounded in reality.

Bit Harsh You sort of come across as though everything is a contest.

Hmm... So your saying I can count on your support then. Eh?

Zardoz · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:34 pm

Jahmen wrote:

zardoz wrote

Quote:

Paramount to a successful Open Source Uru venture is being grounded in reality.

Bit Harsh You sort of come across as though everything is a contest.

Hmm... So your saying I can count on your support then. Eh?

What I'm saying is that this community has a terrible habit of engaging in argumentum ad verecundiam, or appealing to "authority" to move an argument forward. (Quoting Latin is, of course, an example of this ....) Using fictional creations as the authority is one example, as was the constant drumbeat of Cyan wants this and Cyan wants that. Open Source means that authority over all of Uru is tossed out the window, except for issues of Cyan's intellectual property and their licensing of it (or whatever arrangements they put forward).

Tossing around ideas in these forums is a great way to relieve stress, but the ultimate test of ideas will be in practice, not in theoretical discussions. As for support, I'm just hanging around until something gets up and running. Then we'll all have a chance to support (or not) what is in fact out there. Some of your ideas about Guilds are interesting, some are not. I'll wait to see them in practice before deciding.

rarified · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:54 pm

Zardoz wrote:

Open Source means that authority over all of Uru is tossed out the window, except for issues of Cyan's intellectual property and their licensing of it (or whatever arrangements they put forward).

I've seen this point of view expressed several times on the forum, and I think it sets an unrealistic expectation of what Open Source means in the context of the next incarnation of URU.

This is probably going OT from discussion of the Guilds

In my mind, Open Source and the content of the game are orthogonal. The parts of URU that Cyan described as "put the program code sources ... into open source" really has very little to do with the Canon of D'ni or the derivatives that make up IC gameplay. The program code is more the toolkit for exploring the world described by the models and representations of the world of D'ni.

By making the source of the game available to the community, Cyan will empower the community to create instances of the game wherever and whenever they would like. So in that regard, "authority" has been relinquished. But because the artistic content (the models and textures) is not going to be fully unencumbered, the flow of gameplay and the existing worlds will largly remain intact. And by deduction, the storyline of D'ni will be preserved to the extent it has been told as well.

My expectation is that Cyan will make some small alterations to the existing models to provide "jumping off" points where user created content can be integrated into the game. Think perhaps of the additional bookshelf space in Relto. Or a new set of pedestals in the library. This would be consistent with the FCAL information we saw last year for MORE. There may also be places to integrate new characteristics of gameplay objects, such as avatar behaviors or decorations (clothing), or other objects (think boulders instead of cones). But I think (and I could be wrong) that changes of this type will require changes to the game models of which Cyan is still caretaker and owner.

But I would be surprised if the offering of the existing URU content would mean "authority ... is tossed out the window".

[This all assumes that one is acting in concert with the creator of the amazing D'ni world, which I hope the majority of the community does. There is the countering viewpoint that "If we can figure out how to do it, we will do it," which I tend to think of as impulsive and short sighted. Don't get me wrong; I love to reverse engineer (and have done so) as many things as catch my interest, but I usually stop there.]

Nalates · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:35 pm

Zardoz, makes good points.

Also, nothing is likely to unite the community. It has never been united and likely never will. We each get to do our own thing.

AW makes a good point that Alahmnat is still asking for help with the archive. All that requires is some writing and research. I suggest that says something about what the community wants to do.

Jahmen wrote:

The System is to create a means to direct explorers interested in contributing to Open Source by providing the direction to places and tasks that fit their talents and abilities, not wasting the explorer resource.

…ok… But several have suggested that we post directions and links to forums in-game. Ametist is looking at creating classrooms with …computer screens… that can easily be changed. It has been suggested that creating away to show a web page on a panel in-game would be a good way to do that, thereby making it easy for non-Blender users to update information.

…explorer resource… Do you mean new players coming in or existing players? Active existing explorers tend to already be involved…

Jahmen wrote:

I am not saying the MOUL guilds don’t work together, but that they might improve on it.
Perhaps a stronger common thread of over-all interest to engage everyone interest collectively enough in a way the requires them to be in constant communication on a project.
I suggest that Guilds and non-Guilds, who want to be a part of the Uru Community collective for building Ages and the betterment of the guild and non-guild abilities, we all look beyond pride “individual interests” and come together with a common interest project.

We keep trying to get you to say how they might improve on what they are currently doing, or show us.

…a stronger thread of common interest… ok… but what thread do you think appeals to the majority of the community? I doubt there is such a thread. The only thing the community can be said to have in common is Uru. We all have variations on how Uru should look in the future so even Uru is not all that uniting a concept. A part of the community thinks Uru should not be revived, so we are far from united in anything.

…a common interest project… Shevek tried Genesis. (Reference) I’m not hearing anything from that effort any more. This does not mean that one should not try. Such efforts do lead many of us to be skeptical of great ideas for others to do. Shevek did setup and organize and get it started. His absence has let the project fade, asfaik. When an idea is sustained by a charismatic leader, it requires a continuous input of energy from that person to live on. A good idea can live on its own. Good ideas solve a problem many have or frame a new activity people want to participate in. No single person needs to keep it alive.

So far, you seem to be describing the existing fan efforts of which the guilds are a part. Whatever you see as not working is still not clear nor is what new behavior you propose.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:02 pm

rarified wrote:

By making the source of the game available to the community, Cyan will empower the community to create instances of the game wherever and whenever they would like. So in that regard, "authority" has been relinquished. But because the artistic content (the models and textures) is not going to be fully unencumbered, the flow of gameplay and the existing worlds will largly remain intact. And by deduction, the storyline of D'ni will be preserved to the extent it has been told as well.

My statement is based on the assumption, possibly wrong, that Cyan will not play an active role in Open Source Uru. The FCAL was developed for Uru:CC, and proposed for MORE, not Open Source. As such, RAWA's guidelines for official story/age creations would seem not to apply. When Open Source is finally introduced, perhaps guidance for official stories will appear. But under my (strong) assumption, I see the official canon as being in suspension. We'll get a great big Uru sandbox to play in, but nothing in it will be "official" - that's what I meant when I said "Open Source means that authority over all of Uru is tossed out the window..." That isn't to say I don't see the value in fan-created stories and Ages, it's just that canonical contributions have to go through some central body, and the nature of open source works against that.

Which is why I've always thought the Guilds were a stretch. They may be (and some probably are) in the nature of natural monopolies, so even without official status, having just one version of each Guild might be the natural outcome. But as I've been saying ad nauseum, let's see how it works out in practice, and not constrain our thinking until we've actually got Open Source up and running.

mcbride3 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:25 am

JWPlatt says that those who become offended do not have the vision to take in 'the sheer scope of opportunity available...'
He illustrates by focusing upon the smaller problem of having one's ideas squashed by the weight of adverse opinion. Yet, he allows, neither may one ignore opinion, for the new-idea person must also 'achieve balance'; and such balance clearly demands paying some heed to prevailing opinion.

It is a sticky wicket, and if JWPlatt is thus subdued by the give and take of the bigger problem (which is to say, over how to organize the talents of URU fans for producing open source Ages) – if even JWPlatt bogs down in this intractable problem, then this is no chicken yard in which I should be walking barefooted.

I am not joking about this. I have been impressed by JWPlatt's analytical thinking ever since I first read one of his posts – back before we had Online I believe. So many times he has succinctly summed up a problem, that his failure to achieve the solid summary in this case should be a warning as to how truly difficult is this whole open source proposal.

Again, I have no hope of solving the problem if JWP cannot produce a solid summary. So then I wonder, Why Not? Why is this problem of the Guilds so intractable?

The question reminds of what Zardoz said: “Dr. Watson's speech, for me at least, was the low point of MOUL. The sight of a barely disguised game developer lecturing his customers to play nicely in his sandbox was silly.”
Reading that, I had to immediately admit my sympathy for Zardoz's criticism. Yet, here too, the truth is not a pure issue. For RAWA also pointed out the greatest problem to cooperation in our Western world. It is what he warned of as having crushed the D'ni. And it was not the cartoonishly grasping character of Master Kadish. That would be too easy.

What RAWA warned of was our guild system being subverted by pride and ego.

To my mind, what makes pride and ego so insidious is that we Westerners are far too comfortable with this duo of deadly sins. Mention of them is more likely to give us a yawn rather than a shudder.

Artic_Wagon · **Joined:** Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm **Posts:** 4095

mcbride3 wrote:

What RAWA warned of was our guild system being subverted by pride and ego.

To my mind, what makes pride and ego so insidious is that we Westerners are far too comfortable with this duo of deadly sins. Mention of them is more likely to give us a yawn rather than a shudder.

Do I ever agree with that :!:

On this planet, pride, ego, control, fame and greed are our "masters". I have met with only a few persons
who those "qualities" are not the main goals or as I often called them: "hidden agenda(s)".
(I was very tempted to add the need for, attention/affection/recognition)

The "quote" tag seems to be a bit broken. :wink:

Jahmen · **Posted:** Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:36 am

What I have posted here on this topic with basic suggestion and a general outline for doing something to try to improve things. I will not argue with or against posts that demand specific plans and the details. I will not post and expose what I have specifically to the rank and file. I will implement, when I have worked it all out.

Most explores have seen and posted across the forums since the MOUL guilds began to be established out of a few explorers efforts and voicing concerns with what they saw as a lack of unity of purpose for growing the coming Open Source game.

For those who keep asking and missing what I believe the problem is

Quote:

Guilds lack of unity of purpose for growing the coming Open Source game.

Perhaps, mine and others post concerns about the guilds are nothing more than wasted efforts.
Ultimately it will fall to the Cyan King, who will establish guild rules and standards for what and how guilds will be allowed to take part, once Open Source Uru is released. Present day guilds can only hope to become recognized and sanctioned by Cyan. While some believe Open Source will be a free for all do what ever, Cyan legal will still control the standards for licensed use.

One can only guess to what criteria Cyan will set for Guilds. Maybe along the line values placed with in the games story lore. Things like....
Do they unify the explorers?
Do they listen to the explorers?
Do they grow Ages and game content?

There were good reasons for why the Myst Uru game story lore and guilds are so successful with explorers. The ring of truth and shared values in what the Myst uru history/ story lore taught. Spoke of pride, greed, abuse and of the whispers and cries over injustice. They didn’t listen! They didn’t hear!
The lessons and values placed within the game is the call! The call that drew explorers in and wanting to stay.
Real life or fantasy, the story lore and those values and lessons in them are what defined who most uru explorers are and what they care about. If you really believe the speeches and story lore is just game rubbish, then you have really missed what the explorers are about and have also dismissed them in so doing.

Others talk of “badly made up” and the “Dr. Watson's speech low point of MOUL” and “game developer lecturing his customers to play nicely”
Statements like “The strength of this community is its diversity, not its unity” might make some believe there is nothing to the addage “those divided against themselves will fall”. Others talk about “fantasy mumbo jumbo” and “poor story line MMO antics”. Posting these type things and suggesting the game story lore has nothing to do with the guilds and real life? One might ask What’s wrong with the guilds again?

While the guilds are established with their wiki’s and forums and are teaching and making Ages with the few who stayed behind. Did they scatter more explorers than they saved? Do they operate with the Uru heart so many explorers have come to expect? I think there is room for improvement.

Frisky Badger · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:48 pm **Posts:** 746

Jahmen wrote:

For those who keep asking and missing what I believe the problem is

Quote:

Guilds lack of unity of purpose for growing the coming Open Source game.

How are we (the Guilds) supposed to begin to define a "unity of purpose" when we don't know what is going to happen? You can give a pot of dirt all the water and sunlight in the world, but you aren't going to grow a whole lot if you don't plant anything. We're still waiting for Cyan to give us the seeds. :wink:

I'm not trying to be defensive, just pointing out that the Guilds don't know any more than the rest of the community as to what we should expect.

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:27 am

Frisky Badger wrote:

We're still waiting for Cyan to give us the seeds.

Not the seeds, but the keys. We have the seeds; we're just waiting for Cyan to give us the keys to the garden. In the meantime, we can be (and are) growing plants in pots. (And, sticking with that metaphor, I fear the plants will become root-bound and die if we have to wait too long to transplant them into the garden.)

Jahmen, I share your frustration. I would like to see better organization among the guilds and other groups - all working together to prepare for OpenUru. What I would really like is for Cyan to hand us a roadmap, directions, instructions or guidelines - anything to get us going and stay on a track that will result in something close to their vision for Uru. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for either. But, I'm not giving up hope, either.

Zardoz wrote:

We'll get a great big Uru sandbox to play in, but nothing in it will be "official" - that's what I meant when I said "Open Source means that authority over all of Uru is tossed out the window..."

This has been my thought, too, but I don’t believe it’s written in stone that it must be this way. If the guilds and other groups can be organized, there could be one "shard" sanctioned by Cyan.

Zardoz wrote:

That isn't to say I don't see the value in fan-created stories and Ages, it's just that canonical contributions have to go through some central body, and the nature of open source works against that.

True – unless… someone takes the bull by the horns, wrestles it to the ground, and makes it so that it’s less work on Cyan’s part to provide their stamp of approval.

I thought Dr. Watson's speech was one of the best ever given during MOUL. Although disguised as story, it managed to clearly convey the direction that Cyan wanted us to take and I believe it's the main reason the guilds were formed OOC and went on to accomplish so much. Now, if someone could use that and other speeches and things Cyan has stated to understand their vision for Uru, that person might be successful in bringing the guilds and other groups together to create one shard sanctioned by Cyan.

JWPlatt wrote:

It is just as pointless and counterproductive to allow others to block your vision just because a few or a few million disagree. "Powergrab" is probably just a projection of jealousy when people see someone trying to use what is effectively a cup of water from their part of the ocean. Especially when you consider there is no power here to grab. None of us has any authority. We are what we make of ourselves. There could be twenty Guilds of Writers all competing for the so-called power and it would mean nothing except maybe some good competition. Do you really think it's all that unlikely in a world with a population of eight billion when the source is released? This is only part of what open source brings with it. If you all would like to establish your place with Uru in the open source market, I recommend a unified strength in numbers, talent and good attitude before someone who actually has an organized plan becomes more attractive to a larger world.

To the only people or groups who are destined to help find solutions in a community without inherent authority, go with what you believe, darn the torpedoes, etc, etc. I will use Zardoz's word again - because it's a good one - "persuade" us.

Excellent advice which bears repeating.

JWPlatt wrote:

I too remain unwilling to go with my own little spark because if I stop to pet a kitty, there are some who will think I want to eat it - and I have enough to do already.

MOUL GUILDS - Did they really get them right?

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