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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Jahmen wrote:
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Guilds lack of unity of purpose for growing the coming Open Source game.

Within each guild there is a higher level of unity than within the overall base. This is normal human behavior. Those that agree tend to gather together. Those with similar interests gather together. It is not that someone necessarily organizes them as it is just the nature of humans to gravitate to those they find agreeable.

Once a group forms they set their purposes for their specific interests and pursue them. It is only natural that those purposes and directions are not held by the overall fan base.

Understanding that these uncontrolled, supposedly disorganized groups (guilds, organizations, couple of friends) heading in multiple directions will produce the best results is hard for people to intuit. It is simply unfathomable to those that believe strong central control and planning MUST be in place for things to work. It is the basic freedom verses control debate.

If one could know the best choice starting out then it would be FAR more efficient for everyone to move in the same direction. Since it is not, having multiple directions and ideas makes it much more likely a good workable solution will be found quickly. Where under a planned and organized single effort ideas must be accepted by the central governing body, sold to the members and tried in sequential order. Since people do not like to admit failure central powers tend to travel down a road to disaster long after it has become apparent it is not working and only change direction when members revolt.

Jahmen wrote:
Ultimately it will fall to the Cyan King, who will establish guild rules and standards for what and how guilds will be allowed to take part, once Open Source Uru is released. Present day guilds can only hope to become recognized and sanctioned by Cyan.

I am not sure why you posit this idea as an actuality. I see no evidence to support it in the games history. It is definitely true for the IC guilds In-Game (IC/IG) when Cyan runs things, but that is past. It has never been true for OOC/OOG(out of character/out of game) guilds the fans formed.

If by ‘present day guilds’ you mean the OOC/OOG guilds are hoping for acknowledgement from Cyan… I just don’t see it. I think there are more fans interested in doing their thing their way and skipping input from a twice failed Cyan leadership. Many of us may love Cyan and their story telling is amazing. But there are also a number of fans that wish Cyan would just go away and let the fans try now. Many of the rest of us have mixed feelings on that issue.

Jahmen wrote:
There were good reasons for why the Myst Uru game story lore and guilds are so successful with explorers. The ring of truth and shared values in what the Myst Uru history/ story lore taught. Spoke of pride, greed, abuse and of the whispers and cries over injustice. They didn’t listen! They didn’t hear!

The preference for guilds is not unique to Myst-Uru fans. Most gamers like the idea of ‘guilds’ rather than ‘clubs’ but I have never seen anyone explain why they are different other than in name. So, the success is likely just the nature of fans. It is a handy connection for most fans because Uru has the IC/IG guilds. They quickly adopted it for their clubs and created the OOC/OOG guilds.

I am also not at all sure the Myst-Uru story and lore have taught anything. I think the purpose was to create story drama in game and give people things to do. It capitalized on natural human nature.

Jahmen wrote:
While the guilds are established with their wiki’s and forums and are teaching and making Ages with the few who stayed behind. Did they scatter more explorers than they saved? Do they operate with the Uru heart so many explorers have come to expect? I think there is room for improvement.

Did they scatter fans? No. I think your question implies the guilds are responsible for something that is just the opposite of reality. I did not go to SL because of any guild. Doubt many would give the guilds as the reason they went to play WoW, THERE, GW, EVE, SL, LoTR… People do go to different forums because they preferred the moderating there, had friends their or the things they were interested in are more active there... numerous reasons.

The only thing that keeps a number of people together in the community is the guilds (their forums and activities). As for heart, it is not guilds that have the heart. It is the fans. The guilds and other fan organizations are where those with the most heart (as shown by participation) can be found. The OOC/OOG guilds are just another fan organization.

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 Post subject: Lessons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Very thoughtful message, Nalates.
One comment that made me think was:
“I am also not at all sure the Myst-Uru story and lore have taught anything. I think the purpose was to create story drama in game and give people things to do. It capitalized on natural human nature.”

I would contest you on this point. Just intuitively, you might imagine that no story line is going to be so well received as has been Myst/Uru if it were without lessons in values – that is, if it had no attitude toward morals/ethics and if it was simply vapid.
In our case, many lessons are taught and many more situations provoke the contemplation of human values.
There is a great deal of this in our stories and it becomes fairly clear when you compare Myst/Uru story line to the thoughtless and aimless purpose of war games. Even your own SL, compared to Myst/Uru storyline, illustrates what it means to be with less value content (SL) versus more value content (Myst/Uru).

I could easily criticize Myst/Uru for having too many negative lessons. For instance, the huge ego of Gehn is pretty much the whole back story of Riven. It largely advertises the negative values of a dysfunctional family. But even negatively presented, it is a strong lesson.
However, when Gehn is given personality and purpose through the good acting of John Keston, the rather simple notion of a grasping and rapacious father, cloaked under such clever persuasiveness, takes on a sense of deep urgency and becomes the stuff of human drive and failure.

The lessons are there in many ways. Even if we sleep through the teaching, they are still there, maybe to wake us up the next time we play.

pappou

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:32 pm 
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mcbride3 wrote:
I could easily criticize Myst/Uru for having too many negative lessons. For instance, the huge ego of Gehn is pretty much the whole back story of Riven.


And also the implications of the lessons 'learned' by Sirrus and Achenar. "Liar, liar..pants on fire". At least in the US, I'm quite sure most of us have, at one time or another, heard that one...be it at you, or from one or to another....


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:58 pm 
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Now, I must say I feel we are on a slippery slope when we start talking about a philosophical direction that we absolutely must buy into. Are we playing a game or joining a church?

Nice to see you around, btw, pappou - we miss your drive over at the GoW. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:16 pm 
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But, Jojon, if we don't 'play the game' here in the forum, where else do we go?...church?...Oops, another philosophical question. Round and round we go... :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Now, now, Jojon. I realize that you know me to be an absolutist at heart, but in this case i am not issuing the imperative.

It is the choice of choosing wrongly which Gehn offers so beautifully in those scenes from inside his cage.
And after all, such a choice is the basis for all good literature, is it not?

Besides: Philosophy is really the stuff of life -- only put in fancy clothes.
You don't kid me, Jojon. At heart you really enjoy those slippery slopes [don't you?].

pappou

Edit: [don't you?]

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 Post subject: A New Guild System?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:18 am 
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I DID NOT mean to imply that “King” Cyan’s licensing of Open Source Uru would or could say anything at all about the out of game guilds. But how and what those guilds can do and say in Open Source might be another matter. This could be a topic of a new debate thread of its own. Though a mute point probably. Others post rightly so, I believe that the very nature of Open Source will lend its self to creations and themes stretching beyond what is core Cyan Uru.
That could be in the very risk nature of Open Source for Cyan spawning some new things altogether not Uru and unuseable to help support it.
Maybe even over time, threaten it. Who can really say or predict.

Nalates Wrote:
Quote:
Once a group forms they set their purposes for their specific interests and pursue them. It is only natural that those purposes and directions are not held by the overall fan base.


Nalates, this statement is the point of our disagreement. I don’t agree at all it is only natural that those purposes and directions are not held by the overall fan base. I believe that any groups set purposes for their specific interests and pursuit of them not being held or inclusive of the overall fan base makes clear they have an agenda away from the over-all fan base. The Uru Community of explorers. But that is the point of them, right? The core uru community of explorers had expected the out of game guilds to be for and about them and not their own agenda. The core community of uru explorers missed the real point behind those who got into setting up the guilds. :evil: Those that did get it, left! :evil: Most, I believe, did not understand their indifference to them. Their refusals to listen and follow the overall fan base of screaming posts. To say that going against the overall fan base is natural is really saying, the overall fan base doesn’t matter to them. Why?

Note: Emote :evil: said Evil OR very Mad. I was going for the later.. Had gotten one on the right wrong. fixed it

Nalates Wrote:
Quote:
Many of us may love Cyan and their story telling is amazing. But there are also a number of fans that wish Cyan would just go away and let the fans try now. Many of the rest of us have mixed feelings on that issue.


:shock: This statement is the point! :shock: We are talking about those "number of fans" being a part of those who formed the out of game guilds. They became part of the guiding influence at the core of the groups with this vision or agenda to move the guilds away from Cyan control and influence. Take Open Source in another direction. Their direction. Hey! Hey! WAIT! :arrow: I am not arguing for or against it being right or wrong. It is simply one outcome. I tend to think that even within the core group(s) running them, are divisions even now. Some simply don’t even see any of this at all as the undertow to their efforts. Others just trying to maintain a place and compromised balance. While still even others, patrol the forum thread trying to hide it all from the mass of explorers. The price being paid for the independence of vision for a fan run Cyan free influence, losing and driving away the overall core fan base.

:wink: Perhaps. maybe, possibly, uncertain, etc.... OpenUru.org sprang from this invisible division of purpose spread across and within the guilds. Some wanting no Cyan input or influence in or over their Open Source game and those wanting Cyan not only a part of their Open Source vision, but believing it necessary to help guard their Uru story canon of the game.

:idea: :idea: :idea: I have to wonder if this doesn’t mean that anyone with the will to, can build a completely New System of Guilds. A New Guild System aimed at and for the overall fan base to come back to. :idea: :idea: :idea:
JWPlatt is quoted enough already here to answer this. Note: Disclaimer for JWP, we have discussed nothing of this together. Though I will be interested to see anything he might post to this. :D Let the posts rain down! :D
This should not be seen as an attack or threat to the existing Guilds and system. Maybe this is, instead, the natural course and outcome for what must happen. Some will continue to pursue their non-cyan open source game agenda and support the more radical ages and stories inevitability.
I see my suggestion as alternative to form New Guilds, with groups, that set their purposes for their specific interests and pursue them for serving the only natural purpose and direction held by the overall Uru fan base. Ones that the Natural overall Uru fan base generated from Uru create a New Guild System for Cyan influenced and sanctioned New Ages and Worlds.

P.S. Thanx Nalates for posting the door. I accept the challenges and I am walking through it! This post was not against you personally, but some what against your idea's and view points held. :oops: If what I have posted here is way off base with no truth or basis at all. :oops: Oh well, My bad again! :P


Last edited by Jahmen on Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:17 pm 
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@Jahmen:

I believe what Nalates might have meant, was the old adage that "you can't please everybody all the time". "The overall community" is not some sort of Gaia hivemind, that speaks with one voice. No matter WHAT you do, you are bound to irritate SOMEone.


As for part two of your post:
(If anybody feel pointed out here; please don't -- there is no way you could be as crazed as some people in the other community, I'm about to mention.)

Some people are doers, that simply go on and be productive. These would be the ones who have come together in the guilds, as they stand and publish newsletters, churn out maps, program tools, builds and tests ages and so on. The really wise ones never let themselves get involved with petty politics.I am pretty sure that everyone involved healthily enough recognise that these guilds have no official status -- the writers in particular have managed to attain a rather open-minded attitude to the whole thing and I can't see any one of them protest, should someone decide to set up his own guild of writers in parallel.
Others are talkers, who are fiery abyss bent on telling others what to do...

Now, I am also part of another "community" revolving around another outdated piece of technology ("Amiga" computers, if you wonder).
This communty is left in total tatters, due to a clique of self-appointed "community leader" figures. They are not "doers" in any true sense, but talkers with ambition: they wanted to "be" someone, despite lacking any relevant skills, so they began talking a lot and use their one real strength: deceit. The Amiga brand, since the fall of the already incompetently managed company that used to make and sell them, has passed hands several times, from one hoax outfit to another and this is where the talkers found their niche as corporate apologists. They try to surpress bad news at any cost, frequently referring to them as "FUD" (fear-uncertainty-doubt) and inflate any moderatly good ones to ludricrous proportions. When alternative paths arose, the talkers would immediately brand the proponents of those "splitters" and not miss an opportunity to trashtalk them.
When bad news became too obvious to ignore, the talkers locked themselves up, with their core group of faithful sheep, into a closed community.

I hope the irony is obvious here:
These people, who still speak so angrily about splitting the community, not only actively CAUSED that very split, but has kept doing it, over and over.


Where is the wardrobe of life left, if there is only one costume allowed?


*gleefully slips down the water slide* :P


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Jahmen wrote:
Nalates wrote:
Once a group forms they set their purposes for their specific interests and pursue them. It is only natural that those purposes and directions are not held by the overall fan base.



Nalates, this statement is the point of our disagreement. I don’t agree at all it is only natural that those purposes and directions are not held by the overall fan base. I believe that any groups set purposes for their specific interests and pursuit of them not being held or inclusive of the overall fan base makes clear they have an agenda away from the over-all fan base. The Uru Community of explorers. But that is the point of them, right? The core uru community of explorers had expected the out of game guilds to be for and about them and not their own agenda. The core community of uru explorers missed the real point behind those who got into setting up the guilds. :evil: Those that did get it, left! :twisted: Most, I believe, did not understand their indifference to them. Their refusals to listen and follow the overall fan base of screaming posts. To say that going against the overall fan base is natural is really saying, the overall fan base doesn’t matter to them. Why?


One of us is definitely missing a point. I’m saying groups of fans form clubs and do their thing because that is what they want to do. That happens in all human endeavor, which is why I say it is a natural human behavior.

This idea, “The core uru community of explorers had expected the out of game guilds to be for and about them and not their own agenda.” I am assuming by "expected' and "about them" you mean to speak on behalf of the fan community and what they expected/think about; the guilds’ purposes, what guilds are working toward, who the guilds are dedicated to and whether the guilds are serving the larger fan base. From the divergence of opinions in this community I find it hard to accept any point, opinion or idea being held by all fans, without good evidence. Whatever, I think it is pretty much the case that groups of fans are formed to help the larger community with specific facets of the game. Read the mission statements of the guilds that have them and look at the actions of the other groups. Most fans are helping other fans.

You also seem to subscribe to the idea there is some evil agenda behind the guilds (:evil: your emoticon). Further reinforcing that idea by stating all those that ‘got it’ left the guilds. It seems most people leave one group of fans to join another group or form their own group because the initial group is not meeting their needs or won’t do what an individual wants. No single group is going to be all things to all people. Leaving is not always a bad thing or for nefarious reasons. People have different ideas and some are not accepted by an existing group. When that creates friction the smart ones form their own group and pursue their ideas. That is the point of freedom over centralized control.

Your idea that the guilds are going ‘against’ the overall fan base completely misses reality and mischaracterizes my points. Forums are often called Special Interest groups. Fans with special interests form them for their purposes. By having open membership and encouraging participation of other fans it is obvious they are not ‘against’ anything. They are ‘for’ a specific interest. So, just like we have doctors that are specialists, because the knowledge base of medicine is too great for anyone person to contain, so too we have specialized groups of fans. It is a good thing.

The GoW is ‘for’ writing ages. They are NOT ‘against’ testing ages and the GoMa. The two have different interests and focus.

To say the guilds formed to move control away from Cyan… I don’t think so. You have any evidence of that?

As to driving away the fan base… something like 97% of the members here do not participate in this non-guild fan group. What evidence do you have that the guilds have driven people out?

If the ‘division’ that OpenUru.org sprang from is ‘invisible’, how do we know it is there?

As to forming new guild systems… aaaah, yeah. Jeff already has a new set in SL for Uru-SL purposes.

As for an OVERALL PURPOSE of the greater fan base… good luck defining that.

Understand. A challenge is not against. In business ideas are challenges before time, effort and money are invested. Challenges clarify thought and ideas and remove misunderstandings.

Jojon, seems to see the things I see. While my ideas are phrased differently it’s on point. He labels the groups of fans as doer’s and talkers. I would make the comparison to producers and politicians.

So, as I’m finding in other threads others are having a hard time understanding what you’re on about. Whatever it is you are complaining about and suggesting we change is still not clear and yes I’ve read your post a couple of times and some sentences several times. Even rereading the thread, your complaint seems to be evolving. I just don’t know to what. Whatever door you are going through, good luck.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:55 pm 
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So, tell me again: Whats the Problem?

Sorry, Jahmen, if I wandered off course from your preferred theme (I.e.: with my Values comments). But to my mind your whole discussion is a contest between different sources of values.

* DELETE

Every guild probably has its own set of characteristics. I don't really know. What does seem clear is that there are many vague and diverse characteristics in all these guilds, and they make the generalizations appearing in this thread (Jahmen's as well as Nalates and mine and all the others) difficult to unify. We lose contact with the fixes because the descriptions of the Problem are too difficult. The clearest statement of the 'problem' I have seen is Jojon's. But that only applies to GoW. Still, I have seen no 'fixes' proposed for it.

* Edit: I used Jojon's name in vain here; please forgive, Jojon.


The Medium is the Message: PART TWO

Perhaps, there is another way to locate the heart of the Guilds problems.
It seemed to pass unnoticed that someone in an earlier message mentioned the power of the forums. I am not sure why people ignore this as a really ripe problem. I brought up this very issue in the Subterranean Restorations organization, when it was going through one of its several small heart attacks.

My point, since the mod showed little interest in the forum, was to run it democratically, not by moderator fiat. However, I lacked the skill to interest the grouop – except Whilyam, who did wake up to the threat and take active control of the forum.

I mentioned this same democratic procedure on the series of forums that Tweek was setting for artists and photographers and such. That only sent Tweek into a twit and I was effectively banned.

But why, I ask? All the primary control in any on-line organization lies in control of the forum. Both Wihlyam and Tweek know this quite well. I'm sure many others do too, but you won't hear them broadcasting the point. And so far, members have not cared to voice their dismay.

My question to this forum then is, Why not look into the nature of the medium (the guild forums) and don't worry so much about their vague and various messages? The medium of the forum itself is far more amenable to definition; it is the heart of power and no message may get out which is not strained through the medium's filters.

pappou

EDIT: PART TWO Combined at mod's request
Edited

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Last edited by mcbride3 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:25 pm 
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The Medium is the Message


................................................moved

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Last edited by mcbride3 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:07 am 
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The big issue with running forums democratically lies in the configurations and permissions. When there were 5 of us with forum admin on GoW (and only 3 of us ever actually logged in to the admin settings) we had a number of permissions issues because the people who were given the responsibility of setting up forums didn't actually know how the forum permission system worked. As such, we once had all of our global news items deleted by a user trying to tidy up their journal forum, when they shouldn't have actually had that permission.

The lesson to be learnt is that sometimes people need to take control and not give that control to others, in an effort to actually move things forward.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:28 am 
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Paradox is talking about administrative problems.
Administrative requirements do not go away, whether the forum is run dictatorially or democratically. They are always present.
His comments to not address the issue of a democratic forum.

By democratic I was thinking of an elective position for the mod, and rules which would encourage the mod to be responsive to the forum members. This would mean rules for calling new elections.
Now, if the members want to be under dictatorial controls, then so be it. If not, then they have to come to terms with what they do want. They will have be responsible for shaping the forum

Alas, democracy has its responsibilities. Maybe forum members prefer to avoid them? If so, then there is no room for griping, and this whole thread could not then appear.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:29 am 
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Democratically run operations have a …I’ll call it… breakeven point. Below a certain size it takes more work and time to come to a democratic decision. Below that size learning how to come to consensus is faster and easier with a facilitator breaking ties. Above some size it saves time to vote rather than build consensus.

In a democracy 50% plus one idiot get to decide. One does not need to convince the entire group. So, you will always have malcontents in a democracy, which is why it has historically been believed an impossible form of government. Democracies do NOT breed harmony.

I suspect one could consider most of the Myst-Uru guilds an oligarchy. Paradox is right in that it is more efficient to have someone make a decision and move forward. When someone does not like the decision is when issues come up. Then those in charge have to decide what they are going to do. In many cases it just has to come down to going with the doers and let the talkers talk.

mcbride3/pappou describes a comparison I would not use but find far too apropos. :lol:

pappou is right in that the final decision maker is the one with the administrators password. I’m not really sure that is power. I can have a new forum up in about 15 minutes and in a week have it publicized. My fellow malcontents can easily join me. So, I don’t see it as real power.

As to looking at the media… that is an idea. But, then forum software is pretty universal and what is there about one forum over another that can change anything about how a group runs?

pappou is right Paradox is talking about administrative problems, but what other problems could there possibly be that we are talking about? How the guilds are run is administrative, so I see Paradox’s points as the obvious practicality for the whole thing.

If one cannot specifically point to a problem and define it, how can anyone decide on a solution? Here the problems seem have started out nebulous and changed to imprecise. When Jahmen decides a new guild structure is needed and suggests many things one being, “Find the right people and match them to the right role within the Age building project.” It sounds good but what makes one think the present system of letting people fill the needs as they choose does not already do that? And how does one change the system without taking away the individual’s right to choose? It is those questions that underlay my curiosity as to what he would actually change.

Let the doers do. Complain when you think you have a better solution. If no one listens, go do it anyway. Prove 'em wrong or you’ll find out why things are as they are as you try.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:42 am 
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You cut with a sharp sword, Nalates.

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