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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:03 am 
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Cyan stating any rules about "you gotta stay IC". I hope they won't, for that is, to my mind, the best way to get uru killed again.
No, that can only works with both IC and OCC.

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Last edited by EowynCarter on Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:56 am 
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I've long enjoyed writing fanfic, Ages, comic books and whatnot to add to the content of other universes that I was interested in, and in all of the fan groups I've seen there has never been as much dislike of non-canon abiding content. I mean, usually people just relax and suspend their disbelief while enjoying non-canonical content, and then just don't integrate the noncanonical content into their "official" picture of the universe. This isn't a criticism or anything--to each his own--just an observation on what I found to be a rather surprising Uru trait.
Now, one thing I haven't seen anyone discuss yet is the "unofficial route" to how things become canon. I guess you can wave the scepter of authority and say, "I hereby declare this canon in the name of Cyan!" but it's interesting too though, how some fan content can become a sort of loosely agreed upon unofficial canon. I've seen multiple examples of this in one of the universes I frequent. One typical example is that a character with few lines or an undefined backstory gets a reallllly good story written about themselves by the fan who absolutely loved them and read a book into their limited lines and actions as a result. Then, after multiple other people have read that author's work, they too pick up on that characterization and sometimes even on the story itself and use that to create their own stories. It's interesting how some features of various characters sift out through the fan universe and become widely accepted as the "right" way to think of and write a character. I've seen very loose interpretations of the canon, or completely new additions to it, become fan culture canon--and not just minor things either, but origin stories, romances between characters, and whole personality characterizations.
Why does this happen? Because people tend to want to imagine that a story they loved, enjoyed, and felt "should be true" is part of the canon. And then, if those same people go on to create new stories set in that universe, they tend to support the best-liked interpretations of the other fan creators, and the idea spreads. An example of that right here might be if someone were to write a really good fanfic about, say, the leader of the evil Bahro. If he was really characterized well, as a relatable and sympathetic character with his own relationships and unique, appropriate origin story, it is quite possible that people would begin to think of him (having nothing else to base their idea of him on) as the fanfiction character rather than the official, unknown character who has virtually no details attached. Nature abhors a vacuum, and once you've read a story about "the daring leader of the evil Bahro who finally made it to freedom and decided to protect his people by going on the offensive against the universe itself" you can never again return to thinking of the leader of the Bahro simply as, "the leader of the evil Bahro--don't know anything about him except that he has a patch of skin missing." The fan interpretation is always hovering in the wings thereafter, watching and waiting for its chance to fill the void of our understanding of events and to supply explanations for the activities of the evil Bahro. And the funny thing is, once these ideas have taken root in the fan culture, if a canonical interpretation contradicts a well-loved fan interpretation, the canonical interpretation is often considered "wrong!" Then people say things like, "Well, that new writer obviously just had no idea about what so & so is like, we'll just pretend this episode never happened," or "Here's a tortured explanation of how the canon and the unofficial fan story don't actually conflict, and the fan story is still true and there are extenuating circumstances for why so & so did what he did in that episode." After all, if you genuinely like the fan interpretation of the evil Bahro's character, and the canon interpretation seems disappointingly dull by comparison...well...You either have to explain the contradiction away or ignore it. Either way, I think the universe is richer even for canon contradictory stories. The nice thing about fan stories is that you can ignore them if you don't like them, and they sink off into oblivion--not so for canon stories that you don't like (think of the linking book panels that don't move). :roll:

"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of owned by the folk." --Henry Jenkins


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:30 pm 
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can a mod delete that ? i hit the "reply" instead of "edit"

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Last edited by EowynCarter on Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:28 pm 
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[before you read this, notice that I'm not sure if cyan worlds can take control on people's servers. I got the impression they can't, if I'm wrong than tell me. Thanks}

I don't really care what others do in uru, as I said I play where I want to play.

But I DO care how uru will develop, in the eyes of those who doesn't play it. How uru will look like as the whole game, not each server.

If people start making "purpleduckLOL" ages full of ducks pictures, uru is no longer uru. It's a sandbox for jokers.I don't know what uru will become.

But to be honest, I'm sure it will be jokers sandbox.

It seems that from the moment uru becomes open source, cyan worlds can't get any money of it, and because they can't close the servers, it will be no use for them to return to uru (once they can) because people can play the fans servers for no money (and I'm sure that once the wild west starts, no one gives a think if cyan asks them to close the servers).

From every point, uru is going to become jokers sandbox. Cyan Worlds won't be able to make money out of uru even if they have all the resources to pick it up again.

That is my main fear. I hope we can work something out. We got time until the game is up. Maybe we can gather what people think they will make in their server. Who knows, maybe if most people WANT to limit the maddness in their servers, we will be able to make an agreement and rules, before the jokers sandbox starts.

Remember I'm talking about the whole uru. In servers point of view, I don't really care what others do.

EDIT: you know...thinking about it, an agreement, considering server owners really want to keep the secondlife effect out to some degree, may be a good idea. If all server owners wish to keep the wild west out, we could make an agreement. If they want to enter the "LOLpurpleduckLOL" age, they are told: sorry, you signed the agreement! of course this agreement won't say "no crazy things at all!", but just limit the crazy things. People can change their skin color to purple, but they can't make completely crazy age (see "ducks" age). It could keep uru being uru, and keep the secondlife effect out, at least to some degree. Of course, if all shard owners agree. What do you think?

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Last edited by ThedStranger on Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Samsbase wrote:
I vote myself lord and dictator of all!

anyone here want to veto that ?

thought not

(everyone is obviously too scared of me)


i second your self as lord and dictator, as long as you leave me alone


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:04 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
[before you read this, notice that I'm not sure if cyan worlds can take control on people's servers. I got the impression they can't, if I'm wrong than tell me. Thanks}

I don't really care what others do in uru, as I said I play where I want to play.

But I DO care how uru will develop, in the eyes of those who doesn't play it. How uru will look like as the whole game, not each server.

If people start making "purpleduckLOL" ages full of ducks pictures, uru is no longer uru. It's a sandbox for jokers.I don't know what uru will become.

But to be honest, I'm sure it will be jokers sandbox.

It seems that from the moment uru becomes open source, cyan worlds can't get any money of it, and because they can't close the servers, it will be no use for them to return to uru (once they can) because people can play the fans servers for no money (and I'm sure that once the wild west starts, no one gives a think if cyan asks them to close the servers).

From every point, uru is going to become jokers sandbox. Cyan Worlds won't be able to make money out of uru even if they have all the resources to pick it up again.

That is my main fear. I hope we can work something out. We got time until the game is up. Maybe we can gather what people think they will make in their server. Who knows, maybe if most people WANT to limit the maddness in their servers, we will be able to make an agreement and rules, before the jokers sandbox starts.

Remember I'm talking about the whole uru. In servers point of view, I don't really care what others do.

EDIT: you know...thinking about it, an agreement, considering server owners really want to keep the secondlife effect out to some degree, may be a good idea. If all server owners wish to keep the wild west out, we could make an agreement. If they want to enter the "LOLpurpleduckLOL" age, they are told: sorry, you signed the agreement! of course this agreement won't say "no crazy things at all!", but just limit the crazy things. People can change their skin color to purple, but they can't make completely crazy age (see "ducks" age). It could keep uru being uru, and keep the secondlife effect out, at least to some degree. Of course, if all shard owners agree. What do you think?


I think this applies to you too, Mr S.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:13 pm 
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I know russel, I agree with you. At least, I agree when I look at each uru server as a different game.

So now look at uru as a united game. It just looks much better to me. Maybe we CAN make it a united game, it already seems people want to limit the secondlife effect. Than, if they say "let's do the craziest age EVER!!!!!!!!!" we will tell them "sorry, uru is uru, you signed an agreement, and according to this and that, you can't do this thing. Scale down the craziness and it should be fine".

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:42 pm 
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I skipped to the end, since I have to leave for a meeting in a few minutes, so I'm sorry if this has already been suggested!

Rather than a dictator per se, perhaps something like a Guild of Canon would be more appropriate. Such a Guild could explore new Ages, particularly Ages purporting to adhere to the Canon, and approve these Ages or offer suggestions before the books are released.

BUT WHATEVER WE DO:

The focus needs to be on Uru, and any Writers attempting to focus on Canon, as well as the GoC itself, will need to keep Uru topmost in their minds. Meaning, suggestions by the GoC would need to be respected by the Writers, if such suggestions will help the Writers adhere to Canon.

Please note that I'm all for some no-holds-barred Ages as well! Heck, that's what makes Catherine so fascinating. I think there's a definite place for "sandbox" Ages like Catherine's Torus, where writers created them "just because they could." But it will need to be made clear to explorers that such Ages are entirely the work of other explorers, and have nothing to do with D'ni history, traditions, etc.

That said, I am seriously looking forward to ALL the Ages that come out of the community. I'm thrilled about what we might make of this!

Cheers,

Mowog

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:44 pm 
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Only one group has been proven avid fans since Myst started.

They've stayed out of all the community politics.

They are fully supportive of Cyan and all their works.

Most of all you newbies prolly haven't heard of them.


I speak of the Lysters. Cyan is even part of the Lyst.

Might be worth engaging them.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Aeronie wrote:
Only one group has been proven avid fans since Myst started.

They've stayed out of all the community politics.

They are fully supportive of Cyan and all their works.

Most of all you newbies prolly haven't heard of them.


I speak of the Lysters. Cyan is even part of the Lyst.

Might be worth engaging them.


That sounds a lot like when a certain fan came into Cyan Chat and accused us of not being real fans because we didn't blindly follow Cyan and Uru.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:38 pm 
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There's room for both, Mr S.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:05 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
[before you read this, notice that I'm not sure if cyan worlds can take control on people's servers. I got the impression they can't, if I'm wrong than tell me. Thanks}

I don't really care what others do in uru, as I said I play where I want to play.

But I DO care how uru will develop, in the eyes of those who doesn't play it. How uru will look like as the whole game, not each server.

If people start making "purpleduckLOL" ages full of ducks pictures, uru is no longer uru. It's a sandbox for jokers.I don't know what uru will become.

But to be honest, I'm sure it will be jokers sandbox.

It seems that from the moment uru becomes open source, cyan worlds can't get any money of it, and because they can't close the servers, it will be no use for them to return to uru (once they can) because people can play the fans servers for no money (and I'm sure that once the wild west starts, no one gives a think if cyan asks them to close the servers).

From every point, uru is going to become jokers sandbox. Cyan Worlds won't be able to make money out of uru even if they have all the resources to pick it up again.

That is my main fear. I hope we can work something out. We got time until the game is up. Maybe we can gather what people think they will make in their server. Who knows, maybe if most people WANT to limit the maddness in their servers, we will be able to make an agreement and rules, before the jokers sandbox starts.

Remember I'm talking about the whole uru. In servers point of view, I don't really care what others do.

EDIT: you know...thinking about it, an agreement, considering server owners really want to keep the secondlife effect out to some degree, may be a good idea. If all server owners wish to keep the wild west out, we could make an agreement. If they want to enter the "LOLpurpleduckLOL" age, they are told: sorry, you signed the agreement! of course this agreement won't say "no crazy things at all!", but just limit the crazy things. People can change their skin color to purple, but they can't make completely crazy age (see "ducks" age). It could keep uru being uru, and keep the secondlife effect out, at least to some degree. Of course, if all shard owners agree. What do you think?



Let me first say: Most of the people who want to have fun playing with Uru as a sandbox understand the importance of the IC thing. This is why they're still with Uru. You're no less of an Uru fan if you feel you want to play with the engine once in a while. Actually, the fan-age tools wouldn't exist if everyone had to keep a straight face all the time.

If you don't like a server you don't have to visit it. Hey, it's not as if we'll hard-code that kind of stuff into the engine. We love the idea of multiplayer IC D'ni/ages (even if that's nor Uru but DIRT). We also are into game-engines and trying stuff out. Granted, when you turn cones upside-down you're not having fun with Uru as much as you're having fun with Plasma. Plasma is an engine that doesn't have to be used for Uru (it's been used for all sorts of projects over the years).

People who go OOC aren't losers and Uru-haters.

Those people who you're talking about will probably devote the most development effort to make Plasma more stable (when the source is released).

I don't want to see all of Uru turn into 2nd-life either. But the fact is, if you don't want it to all turn into that, it can't. You can run your own server. Even if everyone else went horribly OOC there would still be your server that was somewhat IC.

It's just as much your Uru and Plasma as it is these people you talk badly about. Cyan seems to understand that things will not play out entirely as it would if they were still running the MOUL server.

Thankfully, there are those in the community that won't be completely baffled by Plasma's structure when Cyan releases the source. Knowledge is power. Power can be used, abused, etc.. I don't think fan-additions are abuse of power. The most OOC ages I've seen recently weren't made by the UU admins or by the tool devs.

Look at Paradox's AhraPahts shells, TunnelDemo, Boxage, Trebivdil. I wouldn't call each of those a fools sandbox. Each of the makers of these ages have played with the Plasma in OOC (and sometimes ugly :P) ways. This doesn't mean they don't appreciate high-quality visuals (something that 2ndlife lacks).

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Last edited by Lontahv on Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Hey, I never said OOC people are uru haters.

Anyway, I guess the agreement idea is off.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Not exactly - but it will be a group that agrees only amongst itself. No-one is going to arbitrate for everybody.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:30 pm 
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Yeah. I think having a IC (or at least not hugely OOC) group of servers listed as such would be great! You can see them marked as such in a server listing. :)

It's when people try to control everyone with agreements that makes me freak.

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