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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:27 pm 
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Initial content additions or changes may be very limited at first, until the server architecture and the plug in and approval process is worked out.

to get the cavern back up and running from a central auth will be a first step i think..... add ons can possibly be formulated as modules like Relto Pages that can be turned on by individual users on an individual server once they are bug tested and cleaned and put into approved format and vault safe.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:30 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
You've still got the same technical problem, Sophia. How do you get to the auth server from where you are (without coming out of that shard altogether)? Your client has to initiate the new connection. [However - there would have to be something in the background during the transition from the age you are to the age you're going... then that begs the question - how can you link to an age on someone else's network? How do you see that age to start with, to know it's there to link to?]


Hmm interesting. Solving this rests I think primarily with the client, possibly. The client is going need, I think, the ability to authenticate to multiple shards, network wise, routing, I don't see this an issue. Multiple shard authentication would also help facilitate cross shard 'KI' communications, again I think (haven't seen any source). Separate shards would have to agree on a common client to use. Weakness potentially, one strong malicious hack and all the shards come down.


Last edited by RW. on Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:32 pm 
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Roughly the same way a client sees another server on the same shard; whether that server is in France or the Netherlands; the auth-server knows about it. It almost sounds like you expect every shard to be behind closed doors on an internal lan with no connection to the outside.

Yes, it would require an info-server of some sort. Yes, it would require shard admins to make that information available(to the auth server). Yes, it would require admins to set their auth-server to accept authorizations from another auth-server.

What I'm suggesting is that log-in proceeds much like a client log-in except that it is initiated by the local auth-server to the remote/other auth-server.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:48 pm 
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It almost sounds like you expect every shard to be behind closed doors on an internal lan with no connection to the outside.
Pretty much, yes. The auth server sees the primary node in every pyramid (the shard gateway) and that's the extent of the connect. They're all connected to the auth server but not directly to each other.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:37 pm 
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Hmmmm.....scuse this igorant Player - but is this what you guys are talking about?

Chogon wrote:
Also, the architecture of the MystOnline servers is a *lot* different than the Until Uru servers. The MystOnline servers are very scalable and with some open source programmer help, it should be possible to have one shard (shard is not really a good term here) that has many servers, spread over the world but to the user playing, it will look like just one big server. And it should be possible to make them safe and secure.
There still will be rogue servers created, which is fine. But with organization by guilds and other fan groups, and good information, UruLive can still be great place to live.


Chogan's entire post can be found here.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:47 pm 
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Kero wrote:
Hmmmm.....scuse this igorant Player - but is this what you guys are talking about?

Chogan's entire post can be found here.


Yes and no. What I'm talking about is extending that for inter-shard communications/transfers as well. What Chogon refers to in that post is intra-shard. The only things that I see being fundamentally required to be on the same lan is the auth and vault due to bandwidth limitations.

My comments in previous posts relate to one auth-server possibly transferring an avatar's information to another auth-server in a different shard allowing that avatar access. Think 'web-ring' for shards.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:09 am 
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@ Teedyo

Ok.......but that sort of begs the question "Why"? Why have to struggle with connecting seperate shards if the "one shard/server fits all" suggestion that was made in the original OP is - if I understand Chogon right - technically doable? With everything accessable by one avatar through one gateway the only problem I see is not having an option set up for Players who want to block those Ages - or make them invisible - that would be objectionable to them. So, is CylinGuy's suggestion viable?

Of course - what you suggest Teedyo might help to bring those "Rogue" servers/shards Chogon mentions into the fold.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:28 am 
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Not trying to discourage any discussion, but network realities may be a limiting factor in what will be available and affect the experience and realities of one shard or separate independent ones. It is one thing when all your assets (servers, routers, etc) are located within a tier 1(top) or 2 data center where systems can be networked with full 100mb (or greater), full duplex, possibly multiple NICs, network multi-pathing employed, etcetera. Once that traffic moves outside that DC, things change.

The greater the distances, the more backbone vendor networks you transit, the more bandwidth desired (or required), to interconnect various assets, costs escalate substantially (I am assuming a platform capable of supporting several hundred users at any given time on average is desired and without any network induced latency). I can confidently say, that neither the network companies such as I work for who sell it, and other services, or the ISP's who purchase the network bandwidth and remarket it to the enduser, give it away for free, nor is the DC space and supporting services offered free. At least the company II work for doesn't.

A lot of individuals and groups want to do different things and try different things once the chance is presented with the release of the Cyan source code (whatever that turns out to include). Chogon has stated the servers are scalable. That does not necessarily mean the application services will work well in a fully distributed WAN/enterprise environment (to me, Chogon's comments indicate there is work yet to be done on that front).

I just think we need to temper our expectations a tad concerning the possiblity of one large single (shard) at this point. Not a lot, just a tad. Unless of course, an association can be realized to duplicate what Cyan via Gametap had. There will be fees to do that. There will be costs to do any part of establishing a shard of whatever capability.

What is possible and what is actually feasible, technically and financially, in this new reality, may not be the same.

Not that it will be asked, but no, I will not be setting up a public shard myself. Employment limitations would preclude that. I do though strongly consider I will be supporting the efforts of others in that regards in practical ways.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:36 am 
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Absolutely agreed, RW. Also, I'd like to add that nobody is trying to "beat the system", as some might think, but I actually feel that discussions like this one and others will prove helpful to the future of Uru. We all know Cyan does not have the resources to work out the details, and I would bet open source is as new and frightening to them as it is for some of us (I know how much I have learned these past days, THANK you clever people, for making me see a glimmer of light, knowledge wise :shock: )

Don't assume right off the bat that Cyan has it all worked out to a tee, they will need the help of the fans I'm sure. Relax, nobody is trying to hurt you, Uru, or Cyan (anymore) :lol:

As RW. said:

RW. wrote:
(to me, Chogon's comments indicate there is work yet to be done on that front).]


I think Cyan can use all the help they could get from the fans to help them out on a lot of things.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:59 am 
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I think that, with time, we'll see how the shard landscape will look. From my time/experiences in UU, I don't think there will be a million shards. The key difference I see is that with MOUL servers may be linked from pretty much anywhere. Sure, some people had key ideological differences in UU, however a lot of the shard owners also just wanted to do their part to help keep the dream alive (for example, I saw no critical difference between the Greeters Shard and the Desert Shard, or any reason why the Dutch community couldn't be with another shard). They were homes for some, fortresses for others. So far I've only seen two camps forming: the strict Guild-led regulation of Uru which meshes with those who wish to maintain canon, and the less restrictive who are more interested in seeing what can be done. We'll see what happens.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:19 am 
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I think Whil is pretty much there... two groups, as people have noted (yes, myself included, but I'm downplaying my observations this post :wink:) where you'll get those who are sticklers for canon, and those who want the near-anarchy. Shards will spread out, roughly sorted into those two. Not forced into sorting, but ending up judged accordingly (does purple skin automatically make a free-for-all? Nope! They added custom hair colour to MOUL cause of those). At the same time, it'll group itself a bit more. There's only so many times you can throw up a duplicate shard of another and say "This is our place, it's different" and keep it going. It'll start, fragment, rustle, shift, and merge back to a couple 'canon' shards and a handful of free for alls (mostly testing shards). At the same time Cyan won't be running it (honestly, they're giving us the game, why would they run the only auth and vault server in town?) but will be hosting files on a 'data server'. Hosting files, not running a shard. Unless they want to fire up a D'mala-esque shard on their DSL again :? But they could run an auth server.

Why? Why would they, after giving us the code? People have cracked the auth for UU *without* the code.. do you think it'd last 2 minutes with? In turn, they *might* run one, but will let us. People will fire up a dozen auth servers all over for shards.. but it won't matter because the first person to have the hosting who says "This is the one I set up for everyone, all shards of any type welcome" will get used, and people will flock to it ignoring the others until they're shut down from lack of use.



No forcing is needed.. just a little simple trend-plotting. 90% of the stuff we're worrying about such as auth and file hosting will happen by fiat, in a first-come-first-server, as it were.


(As for how extendable the code is, we'll see when we get there)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:23 am 
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RW. wrote:
of one large single (shard)

This is how symbolic languages are born. :)

1) (shard) = server + server + server + server + ... + .... + -> infinity
Network management?
One distributed database?
What happens when a server goes down or is taken down for maintenance?
What happens when the database goes down / gets corrupted? [thanks, mszv]

2) (shard) = shard + shard + shard + shard + ... + ... + -> infinity
How do you enable inter-shard communication?

3) (shard) = shard + shard + server + shard + server + ... + -> inifinity [Cloud computing - a single hosted global network, eg Amazon, Google, GameTap, Cyan]
Questions as 1) and 2)

4) shard = server + server + server + server


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm 
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And all this time I thought "shard" was something I found when I broke yet another plate... there you go... going back to the kitchen where I belong :shock: :P :P :P :lol:

Teasing! Of course you're quite right, Rusty :D


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:33 pm 
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What you theoretically can do is not something you should do.

Aside from the significant network issues - the way I think of it - you want to minimize things breaking. You want to minimize vault corruption, people not being able to get in, having all your progress wiped out - all that. I can't imagine anything worse than having to do a vault wipe and it affects multiple shards - having all your progress be gone, across most of the existent shards, and you have to redo everything. It's bad enough with one shard. I think the risks multiply significantly if you have a vault/database distributed across shards.

The trick is to get something that people can comfortably manage, from a systems and network perspective, realistically. Please don't get me wrong - we have tremendously smart people. But these will be fan run servers, even, I think (not sure) the authentication piece. Uru will not have the infrastructure, resources and people that big distributed databases and systems have, nor will they have the hardware and the communication pipes.

My view - it's starts out pretty much the UU world - independent servers with their own vault/database. That was the beauty of UU in a fan run world. What one shard did - it did not affect the other shards. Sure, it was pain - you had different avatars and different states of progress on multiple shards, but it worked, and it worked well. If we are careful and work together, maybe the community can manage the code so that you can get to most shards with one client - though it might be two or three clients. A few centralized authentication servers, probably OK, I guess, maybe. You get in, get authorized, and you are out. That's a risk - a central authentification server, but perhaps that's manageable. In the old days Cyan ran the authentification server - it was one of their jobs. I'm not sure where that function will reside, in our new Uru world.

With regards to intershard communication (example KI messages) - that's interesting. Perhaps it's OK if that part breaks, so that may be something you can try. Assuming it gets completely broken, perhaps you could bring that part down, wipe it out and try again.

As you can see - my way of looking at it, in this new Uru world, is disaster/contingency planning. What's the likelyhood of something breaking, and how can we minimize this? How can be balance ease of use with getting the thing to work, given that this is something people will be doing in their spare time? Some of these problems would have occured even if Cyan didn't do the open source thing, as long as fans were running their own shards

I think it's better to have something loosely coupled, rather than something tightly coupled. You have to have the over all structure of Uru complement the way systems, and the people running them, work in the new world.

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