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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:27 am 
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CHOGON: Also, the architecture of the MystOnline servers is a *lot* different than the Until Uru servers. The MystOnline servers are very scalable and with some open source programmer help, it should be possible to have one shard (shard is not really a good term here) that has many servers, spread over the world but to the user playing, it will look like just one big server. And it should be possible to make them safe and secure.
There still will be rogue (ed comment: independent?) servers created, which is fine. But with organization by guilds and other fan groups, and good information, UruLive can still be great place to live.


What some of us took from this information, was the implication of One Log In Point, Divergent Paths. That you could log into OSMO, and then decide if you wanted to visit the Story Ages, or the Playground Ages, or the Testing Ages, or the "Wild West" Ages. Many servers, hosted by many people, reachable through a single network. Access to Ages still controlled by server owners, the choice to visit or not visit an area still in the hands of the Explorers. Server Owner Autonomy, Explorer Autonomy, Many Ages, One Nexus.

This concept has been roundly brushed off by people, stating that UU-like individual, isolated shards (which may be made up of multiple servers) is The Way It Will Work.

Why? Why won't the idea of one hub, many servers work? I have yet to see a reasonably understandable explanation for why this formula has been rejected, especially since it seems to be *exactly* what Chogon is suggesting above. And, if it isn't supported by Chogon's words above, I don't see much support for the isolationist approach either.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:54 am 
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I for one hope this to be the case. If i can't get there from the PLAY button above, it's not likely i'll go to your shard.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Why won't the idea of one hub, many servers work?
I've tried to address this more than once.

Prologue and MO:UL were one network, one database. Unless we go for a hosted cloud-computing solution, I don't think we'll have one network, or much more importantly, one distributed database.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:08 pm 
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I can't think of anything more dangerous than having Uru be one distributed system, run by fans. It's not that our fans aren't smart, they are wonderfully smart, but I think we need to focus on what people can manage comfortably. You can do this sort of thing when people get paid to do this, and have the right tools, and even then there are all kinds of issues. I can't see doing this in a fan run situation. In my opinion, if you do this, even if you could get it to work, count on vault wipes (database corruption) and all kinds of other issues.

We talked about this a lot, particularly RW, me and Rusty_Russell. Let me see if I can find some threads.

Here's one - where we talked about the issues with distributed system. There are other threads. You even participated, Eleri.
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 985#278985

Here's the thing - if it looks like one big server - it is one big system, in pieces all over the world, with one big something keeping track of everything across the whole network. You've got bandwidth issues, network control issues, business process issues, distributed database issues, and a whole bunch of other issues, with a system no one is managing. What fan do you think has responsibility for managing the whole thing, and how does said fan fix it when something is wrong? I cannot think of a worse way to start Uru.

My recommendation is to be careful, from a network and systems and implementation and process perspective. Figure out what people can comfortably manage and work with that.

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Last edited by mszv on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:21 pm 
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I don't understand why we need "playground" and "Wild west" servers. Surely people play Uru for the myst feeling which is tied closely to the canon, surely peoples personal ages and such would be more suited in a game such as second life. Not that I have any problem with personal ages made by people who attach lore to the age, but "my private beach" doesn't seem like a very D'ni thing to do.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:54 pm 
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I don't think Chogon was suggesting making one login where people can then go off to a certain server of their choosing. He meant that when they logged in there might be several servers running the game, and the player could end up on any one of them at random, but to them it would seem like they just joined one big server because they were all connected. Basically, just using the separate servers to provide extra "power" -- load balancing so that one doesn't choke on a bunch of people playing at once.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
it should be possible to have one shard
It's possible to read that as just one shard, Herohtar.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:33 pm 
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That's how I'm reading it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:47 pm 
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If that's Chogon's intent, it will be interesting to see how Cyan envisages that working (since they won't be providing a common vault).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Chogon wrote:
it should be possible to have one shard
It's possible to read that as just one shard, Herohtar.


That is what Herohtar described: a single shard. You keep talking about 'one network' like it actually means something. We are all on one network; the internet. A shard can be made up of servers in Canada, the U.S., Australia, Brazil, etc., as long as they have an IP address. All you need is a common auth server and vault. Even those wouldn't need to be co-located; although it would be best. Agree that a distributed vault would be madness.

Locality is not an issue. (except where international law might play a part) Good connectivity is, of course, a plus. The way I see it; and I may be wrong; is that age servers are basically just trackers for players in that age. If a player performs an action that is vault related; (like touching a journey cloth) the age server contacts the auth/vault server to let them know about it and gets an appropriate response.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:34 pm 
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You keep talking about 'one network' like it actually means something.
It does to me. I'm on the GMAC network (where all my addresses start with 10.), the HP-EDS network (where all my addresses start with 131.) etc etc (ie different domains). Prologue and MO:UL were on the same domain, Until URU shards weren't. My expectation therefore is that if all servers were part of the same shard they'd all be on the same domain.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:43 pm 
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The fundamental answer to Eleri's question is, to quote Doris Day, Que sera, sera. While some people truly object to the Single Portal vision, most people who espouse this vision, or so I believe, are simply reflecting their view of open source reality. We are headed toward a world where Uru will exist (except for licensing issues) in a realm of persuasion, not coercion. And so arguing for a centralized version of Uru is fine - give us the arguments why it would be superior to alternatives, and then accept things if people choose not to follow. The constant banging of the Cyan-vision drum just doesn't do anything for me; neither does the trumpeting of guilds. But then, I'm a follower in all this, so I'll just follow the mob ...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Quote:
You keep talking about 'one network' like it actually means something.
It does to me. I'm on the GMAC network (where all my addresses start with 10.), the HP-EDS network (where all my addresses start with 131.) etc etc (ie different domains). Prologue and MO:UL were on the same domain, Until URU shards weren't. My expectation therefore is that if all servers were part of the same shard they'd all be on the same domain.


There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:23 pm 
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I think it is too early to say anything about the matter yet. We haven't even got any word yet except "there shall be open source". The rest, as usual, is speculation and idle chatter. Nothing wrong with that of course, just good to keep in mind.

Oh, and personally, I would like a certain amount of autonomy, because like anybody else, I detest being ruled by others... And even that wish still doesn't exclude the "one shard" idea, should people wish so. Whatever happens, we have two choices: Mur and I might go along with that, or we might not. As I said before, it's too early to tell which it shall be :wink:

Edit: added some thoughts and corrected some errors


Last edited by Sophia on Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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