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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Sophia wrote:
I think it is too early to say anything about the matter yet. We haven't even got any word yet except "there shall be open source". The rest, as usual, is speculation and idle chatter. Nothing wrong with that of course, just good to keep in mind.


No. We know that we are going to be able to run our own servers. We also know that Cyan designed the MOUL servers to be capable of spanning multiple systems. This is a valid point of discussion that does not require any speculation.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Herohtar wrote:
Rusty_Russell wrote:
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You keep talking about 'one network' like it actually means something.
It does to me. I'm on the GMAC network (where all my addresses start with 10.), the HP-EDS network (where all my addresses start with 131.) etc etc (ie different domains). Prologue and MO:UL were on the same domain, Until URU shards weren't. My expectation therefore is that if all servers were part of the same shard they'd all be on the same domain.


There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.


Then we will have multiple shards. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Herohtar wrote:
There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.


Then we will have multiple shards. :)


How so?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:29 pm 
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I think the answer is:

Because we can :lol:

Why would we try to determine the future of EVERYTHING? Let people play the way they want and everybody will be happy :lol: Oh, that said, of course I hope there will be a "canon" shard, preferably with "Cyan's vision" and all that. I just won't try to tell others what to do. Eleri brought up an excellent point however, all I was trying to say, we don't know HOW Cyan sees that "One Shard" idea, except it won't be "One Server", that we DO know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Herohtar wrote:
There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.

DNS tricks through one domain can point elsewhere to a rag tag fleet of Uru servers to collect them under one domain.

It doesn't change any points being made here. Just sayin'.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:50 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
It doesn't change any points being made here. Just sayin'.


And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Promising and interesting at the same time. I'm eager to see how it chnged. :)

TG

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
It doesn't change any points being made here. Just sayin'.


And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


That's easy, seeing as I know very little about either, being a Johnny-Come-Lately to Uru Live. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:29 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Herohtar wrote:
There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.

DNS tricks through one domain can point elsewhere to a rag tag fleet of Uru servers to collect them under one domain.

It doesn't change any points being made here. Just sayin'.


Are you talking NATs here? If so, that's an excellent point. Everything appears to be on the same domain even if it isn't.
Ok. I'm left with the database as an issue.

Network Address Translation

Thanks for the input, Chogon. I'm intrigued to see where that one goes.

Different domain, different shard, Herohtar.


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:47 pm 
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We don't need lots of signle shrad, or one big shard, we need BOTH !

I want one big main IC (not cannon, only Cyan can do that) shard, and i want some occ fun shard.
One does not exclude the other.
That have been a long dream of mine with uru , destroyed when until was close, and now there is very little that could stop it from coming true.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
I'm left with the database as an issue.


I've looked at quite a few different ideas and thought and thought about it

Clusters, Replication, memcache systems, client/server mesh systems

All the time I was hit with the latency been an issue or it just been too complicated to comprehend using, the final solution I came up with was actually a cross with a social idea and a cluster.

A group of people come together, mainly people with some spare cash and skills in database management.

These people get hold of a few machines at the same hosting company (or even an enclosed LAN at a place like rackspace if possible) and build a cluster of database servers, balance them, and then people host game servers themselves as connection points for clients, which talk back to the cluster

For game servers,we have people out there with the hardware in house and some with good connections, others who were thinking about a UU style shard, should be able to manage a few clients on the end of their residential connections if they want to join in.

In a nutshell as long as the database server is well connected and powerful, game servers are just fancy relays for the client to talk to the database.

If the database is created correctly or can be altered to accommodate per game server changes, this should allow custom ages on a connected game server basis. Giving you a unified environment for places such the city and hoods, but giving you UU style customisations for custom ages.

Anyone else got some input on this?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Herohtar wrote:
Sophia wrote:
I think it is too early to say anything about the matter yet. We haven't even got any word yet except "there shall be open source". The rest, as usual, is speculation and idle chatter. Nothing wrong with that of course, just good to keep in mind.


No. We know that we are going to be able to run our own servers. We also know that Cyan designed the MOUL servers to be capable of spanning multiple systems. This is a valid point of discussion that does not require any speculation.


*nodnod* and this is where my brain goes with this. Not limitation of anyone's capacity for autonomy, not endorsement of Cyan or Guild controlled access, not One Guild To Rule Them All, or any such hoohah. Cyan drum beating my tush, we know their involvement is going to be minimal.

My espousement of the Nexus Access concept comes from a fundamental allergy to the idea of OSMO splintering the community into dozens of independant 'shards', where each one must be accessed and explored on it's own terms, and nary the twain shall meet.

Already I see the community accepting that as reality, with no question, and with it I see the isolational, labeling habits beginning: 'if you like That Sort Of Thing, do it on your own shard away from Us', 'If you want to do it That Way, then learn to run your own shard'. This is how we ended up with groups of people ostracized and marginalized in the first place, labeled just based on where they went and who they hung out with. This is more acceptable to the community than pulling together a reasonable system where there's one front door, one tree trunk, and an unlimited number of paths, an infinite number of branches to explore?

(Hey! Chogon's been taking RAWA's Advanced Enigmatics Class!)


Edited to add, because I think Eowyn and others are missing a bit what I'm saying here...this isn't about an IC vs OOC shard. What I want to do is be able to log onto OSMO, show up in my nexus or relto or wherever the hub point would be, and pull up ALL of the ages publicly available, no matter if they're IC, OOC, or they've figured out how to reverse gravity.

I think that procceeding as if the only way for people to make cool, weird, or whathaveyou Ages is by having individual, isolated shards that people have to individually log in to is both technically inaccurate, and sets up the community to fracture.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Eleri I am very much for your point for view, your posts are refreshing to see :)

Eleri wrote:
One front door, one tree trunk, and an unlimited number of paths, an infinite number of branches to explore?.


One Community, One Tree, Infinite Possibilities

You really don't get the infinite possibilities if we don't work together on this.

There are lot of people around here whose behaviours need breaking, once way back, when Uru really was Uru they knew how to talk to the people they now fight.

It needs to change

Eleri wrote:
(Hey! Chogon's been taking RAWA's Advanced Enigmatics Class!)


nar, he's just been hanging around us lot too long :P


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
Herohtar wrote:
Sophia wrote:
I think it is too early to say anything about the matter yet. We haven't even got any word yet except "there shall be open source". The rest, as usual, is speculation and idle chatter. Nothing wrong with that of course, just good to keep in mind.


No. We know that we are going to be able to run our own servers. We also know that Cyan designed the MOUL servers to be capable of spanning multiple systems. This is a valid point of discussion that does not require any speculation.


*nodnod* and this is where my brain goes with this. Not limitation of anyone's capacity for autonomy, not endorsement of Cyan or Guild controlled access, not One Guild To Rule Them All, or any such hoohah. Cyan drum beating my tush, we know their involvement is going to be minimal.

My espousement of the Nexus Access concept comes from a fundamental allergy to the idea of OSMO splintering the community into dozens of independant 'shards', where each one must be accessed and explored on it's own terms, and nary the twain shall meet.

Already I see the community accepting that as reality, with no question, and with it I see the isolational, labeling habits beginning: 'if you like That Sort Of Thing, do it on your own shard away from Us', 'If you want to do it That Way, then learn to run your own shard'. This is how we ended up with groups of people ostracized and marginalized in the first place, labeled just based on where they went and who they hung out with. This is more acceptable to the community than pulling together a reasonable system where there's one front door, one tree trunk, and an unlimited number of paths, an infinite number of branches to explore?

(Hey! Chogon's been taking RAWA's Advanced Enigmatics Class!)


Edited to add, because I think Eowyn and others are missing a bit what I'm saying here...this isn't about an IC vs OOC shard. What I want to do is be able to log onto OSMO, show up in my nexus or relto or wherever the hub point would be, and pull up ALL of the ages publicly available, no matter if they're IC, OOC, or they've figured out how to reverse gravity.

I think that procceeding as if the only way for people to make cool, weird, or whathaveyou Ages is by having individual, isolated shards that people have to individually log in to is both technically inaccurate, and sets up the community to fracture.


*applauds loudly*

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
Herohtar wrote:
There is no reason that all the servers would have to be on the same domain, in fact, it would most likely be impossible for them to be.

DNS tricks through one domain can point elsewhere to a rag tag fleet of Uru servers to collect them under one domain.

It doesn't change any points being made here. Just sayin'.


Are you talking NATs here? If so, that's an excellent point. Everything appears to be on the same domain even if it isn't.
Ok. I'm left with the database as an issue.

Thanks for the input, Chogon. I'm intrigued to see where that one goes.


Except that domains aren't needed. Domains are simply a construct for humans to more readily remember locations. All that's needed are publicly accessible and consistent IP addresses. ie People don't need to know that my e-mail address is [email protected]; they can just send e-mails to [email protected]:25 and they'll get to me just fine. No, that IP won't really work as it's a generic broadcast address but the format holds.

As I said before; the database logisticly needs to be on a single server.

Quote:
In a nutshell as long as the database server is well connected and powerful, game servers are just fancy relays for the client to talk to the database.


Exactly.

Quote:
If the database is created correctly or can be altered to accommodate per game server changes, this should allow custom ages on a connected game server basis. Giving you a unified environment for places such the city and hoods, but giving you UU style customisations for custom ages.


Infeasible as it would require a distributed database. I've actually worked up a model for this but it doesn't allow for load balancing because of (my perceived)database requirements. A centralized database with distributed servers does allow for load balancing.

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