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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:52 pm 
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Teedyo wrote:
DarK wrote:
If the database is created correctly or can be altered to accommodate per game server changes, this should allow custom ages on a connected game server basis. Giving you a unified environment for places such the city and hoods, but giving you UU style customisations for custom ages.


Infeasible as it would require a distributed database. I've actually worked up a model for this but it doesn't allow for load balancing because of (my perceived)database requirements. A centralized database with distributed servers does allow for load balancing.


Think tables and data not networking here.

Looks like I did'nt explain that correctly :(


Last edited by DarK on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Chogon wrote:
And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


Taking this statement from Chogon, until there is something to look at (code and documentation wise), until the structure of the server implementation is actually known and its capabilities, potential and otherwise, we are firmly on the ground of speculation as to what can be, and will be, technically, potentially, or otherwise.

What we do seem to know is, that Cyan, by their statement, are going to open source the server and client code, that is functionally the game engine. Essentially analogous to a vehicles motor, transmission, differential and axles, wheels, the undercarriage. They are not open sourcing the models, textures, essentially the body that is on top and what is seen.

Technically, network domain, operations or otherwise, there is nothing to stand in the way of one distributed OSMO/URU gaming platform, with some work, as Cyan has stated, with the help of some Open Source programing. Realistically, server operators have to buy into the concept, work out the control, operations and support procedures, to make it work. This does not preclude or exclude independent server and servers, what are being referred to as the "Wild West" operations. Which may be wild or just another Canon copy of what Cyan will be providing from their own data server.

I think all the discussion and speculation, even the wild parts, are good. I just would not try to pour any cement yet into a mold that may need to be reworked once the 'plans', that is, the source code and documentation are released. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:06 pm 
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That's one server on a network. That's not many joined together.

Picking up on rw's point - Chogon's post refers to servers specifically. It says nothing about networking them together.


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:08 pm 
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RW. wrote:
Chogon wrote:
And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


Realistically, server operators have to buy into the concept, work out the control, operations and support procedures, to make it work. This does not preclude or exclude independent server and servers, what are being referred to as the "Wild West" operations. Which may be wild or just another Canon copy of what Cyan will be providing from their own data server.


I think we are basically been told that UU shards are no longer possible, with MOUL in its current state, and that it doesn't matter if your a "Wild West" shard because you have to be part of the required specification for it to actually work.

for example there could be a built in requirement to have X number of servers before the servers work correctly and accept connections.

RW. wrote:
I think all the discussion and speculation, even the wild parts, are good. I just would not try to pour any cement yet into a mold that may need to be reworked once the 'plans', that is, the source code and documentation are released. :)


Don't want to be left behind huh?, to be honest this is the main reason why we speculate, to explore the possibilities, nothing is laid out yet, this is important to understand.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:19 pm 
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DarK wrote:
RW. wrote:
Chogon wrote:
And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


Realistically, server operators have to buy into the concept, work out the control, operations and support procedures, to make it work. This does not preclude or exclude independent server and servers, what are being referred to as the "Wild West" operations. Which may be wild or just another Canon copy of what Cyan will be providing from their own data server.


I think we are basically been told that UU shards are no longer possible, with MOUL in its current state, and that it doesn't matter if your a "Wild West" shard because you have to be part of the required specification for it to actually work.

for example there could be a built in requirement to have X number of servers before the servers work correctly and accept connections.


I see nothing definitive in Chogon's statement to base any statement on concerning server structure, whether that be network structure, hardware server(s)/configuration, or application server. Such as, "because you have to be part of the required specification for it to actually work."

Obviously, there will be certain requirements to setup the related game server application platform. I don't see any definitive release from Cyan yet to say what those requirements actually are.


Last edited by RW. on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:21 pm 
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This might be of interest.

Oracle Distribted Database.

Note the section on Net8.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:07 pm 
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RW. wrote:
I think all the discussion and speculation, even the wild parts, are good. I just would not try to pour any cement yet into a mold that may need to be reworked once the 'plans', that is, the source code and documentation are released. :)


Clap clap clap, applause!!! Exactly, you said it, RW and it is what I tried to say earlier, but it came out clumsy. My point exactly, thank you for expressing it so well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:20 pm 
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Sophia wrote:
RW. wrote:
I think all the discussion and speculation, even the wild parts, are good. I just would not try to pour any cement yet into a mold that may need to be reworked once the 'plans', that is, the source code and documentation are released. :)


Clap clap clap, applause!!! Exactly, you said it, RW and it is what I tried to say earlier, but it came out clumsy. My point exactly, thank you for expressing it so well.


Agreed, which is part of why I brought my thoughts up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:49 pm 
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The Oracle diagram shows a link labeled ‘Database Link’. If that link has high latency, the system is likely to lag. There may be an async work-around or other features to reduce it. Locating the Dept Server in California and the Emp Server in Italy would make the round trip about 1,000ms (52ms to clear AT&T and 878ms to travel the rest of the route, omitting router lookups). Locating them in the same room would make it between near 0 and 10 ms.

Until we see the code, I don’t think we can know how much of a problem that would be.

I think it means a distributed set of databases running on home computers is not going to give one good performance in Uru.

DarK seem s feel that MOUL will need some minimum size server bank. It may. I think all we have been told is that MOUL scales well, whatever that ultimately means. Does it scale down to one machine? Or is it 2 to 100 machines or 3 or something to whatever? Once we know, we will know if placing MOUL in a single machine, like UU, is possible, which will tell us if UU type shards (meaning an independent instance of MOUL) and a Wild West with exist.

Whatever Cyan’s exact vision of OSMO is, I don’t think we will know until we see the licenses. I don’t think it, whatever it is, has been forgotten. I think what they have said is clear to them and ambiguous to many of us.

I think many people want to do their own thing be that canon, extended canon, or some wild level of OOC age like an REI branch store next to Zandi’s trailer selling hiking equipment… Some of the dreams and speculation just may not be possible because of licensing and some because of technical issues.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:55 pm 
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my 2 cents as just a player......and I think this may apply to a lot of - "just players" - out there.

I have a 160G hard drive. Of that amount I can only allow about 30Gs for URU. If I have to download all of the data for the game each time I log into a different shard plus any shard specific data just so I can see what that shard offers I see myself running out of allocatted disk space real fast. Thus I would be FORCED to choose among the various shards offered ala UU. I really don't want to do that because I want a chance to see everything fan created out there. Well....within reason that is - I do have some standards that will have to be met. :wink:

Like Eleri - my dream as a player is to have just one log-in to one Relto/Cavern and within that Cavern be able to travel to all the Ages offered no matter who is offering them on whatever servers are out there. I know there are a lot of problems associated with this but is sounds to me - from what others are saying here - that some version of this dream is possible.

Thank you Chogon for telling us to throw out the window the way things were done in Prologue and Until URU. It does give me hope that something can be developed that will come closer to my dream.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:52 am 
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DarK wrote:
Teedyo wrote:
DarK wrote:
If the database is created correctly or can be altered to accommodate per game server changes, this should allow custom ages on a connected game server basis. Giving you a unified environment for places such the city and hoods, but giving you UU style customisations for custom ages.


Infeasible as it would require a distributed database. I've actually worked up a model for this but it doesn't allow for load balancing because of (my perceived)database requirements. A centralized database with distributed servers does allow for load balancing.


Think tables and data not networking here.

Looks like I did'nt explain that correctly :(


I thought that you might be thinking ov tables and is also why I said 'infeasible'. I just don't think it will scale well. What if 600 neighborhoods want their own versions of those custom ages?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:11 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
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People don't need to know that my e-mail address is [email protected]; they can just send e-mails to [email protected]:25 and they'll get to me just fine.
That's one server on a network. That's not many joined together.

Picking up on rw's point - Chogon's post refers to servers specifically. It says nothing about networking them together.


It's one server on the network; joined with every other 'server' on the internet. Any internet-connected computer in the world can connect to it by its dotted-decimal IP address. I can attest to this from my logs which show attempts from China, Korea, Russia, Australia. The list goes on. At the connectivity level; the internet doesn't use domains; it uses IP addresses; which is why they must be unique. Part of 10.xxx.xxx.xxx, part of 172.xxx.xxx.xxx, and all of 192.168.xxx.xxx are reserved as private addresses, are not unique, and cannot be reached from the greater world except by port-forwarding from a gateway which is public.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:59 am 
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Nalates wrote:
DarK seem s feel that MOUL will need some minimum size server bank. It may. I think all we have been told is that MOUL scales well, whatever that ultimately means. Does it scale down to one machine? Or is it 2 to 100 machines or 3 or something to whatever? Once we know, we will know if placing MOUL in a single machine, like UU, is possible, which will tell us if UU type shards (meaning an independent instance of MOUL) and a Wild West with exist.


The fact that something "scales" means it scales up, not down -- to say MOUL scales well means that it still works with more players when running across several servers as it does running on one server with just a few players.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalability

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:08 am 
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Well, I think this is not a feasible idea, for the reasons I stated, but I'm just along for the ride. The fact that the servers scale (yuppers, I believe Chogon) doesn't have that much to do with it. I think the business issues and the technical issues (agreed, only an intelligent guess on the technical issues) make this an infeasible solution.

But, I'm just along for the ride - so I'll play whatever comes up.

This solution seems to presuppose that there is one entity that has final approval and both business and technical control. I'm having a hard time figuring out who that would be.




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:08 am 
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Oh boy, this is getting very messy. Let's see if I can take a swing at explaining how (I think) this works, and use an example that's quite close to my heart.

IRC.

If you take an IRC client and connect to "toronto.on.ca.us.undernet.org", you get to the same IRC system, and can see and talk to all the same people as if you connected to "amsterdam.nl.us.undernet.org" or "phoenix.az.us.undernet.org". The servers are different, hosted by different companies on different IP addresses, in different racks on different continents, yet they all appear to be the same. This is an example of a "Shard" (As we're calling it. In this case, the "Undernet" IRC network). Each "Server" within that "Shard" can be run by anyone, and it doesn't have to point to the same domain (Though that does make it easier to track servers down).

If you take that same IRC client and connect to "irc.dks.ca" or "efnet.demon.co.uk" or "irc.easynews.com", you are on a different "Shard" (the "EFNet" IRC network in this case). Again, different servers, different continents, different IP addresses (And in this case, different domains), but all the same "Shard".

Another example would be google.com. The web server that handles google.com for me (209.85.173.147) is not necessarily the same server you get, but no matter the server, we all get the same search engine. Again, this is an example of several different, disparate servers acting together to "appear" as one.

Now, IIRC, Myst Online (Under GameTap) actually had 2 "Shard"s running: Public and Rehearsal. Only beta testers got to see Rehearsal, but it was there nonetheless. And, IIRC again, the selection of which "Shard" you wanted to play on came before Uru started proper (Urulauncher handled that, and provided a dropdown to choose your "Shard" after it asked you for your login/password).

And as for scalability, even if it requires several seperate "servers" to handle the different parts, that doesn't mean that one machine can't run it all. Look at VMWare, Xen, VirtualPC, QEmu, or any number of other "Virtual machine" emulators. Thus you could have one VM running UruServer.exe, one running Oracle, one running UruAuth, all on the same physical hardware. I doubt this would be a necessity, but it is a possibility.

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