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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Kero wrote:
Now, I realize fully that the URU I want to play is the "canon" version that was created by Cyan with Fan Ages added. I also realize that there are all kinds of "versions" of the game that are possible - including ones where ordinary folks can fly and sport purple skin, not just purple hair. :lol: Truth is, I would be curious to visit these various "versions" just to see what they've come up with but not if it means that I have to download - again and again - the complete game. So, what I as a player would like to see is maybe another "discovered" Nexus - that I can access through a book on my Relto shelf or in my Neighborhood - that will take me to all those various "versions" of URU as seamlessly as the current Nexus takes me to the Ferry Terminal. I also want to be assured that any such "version" offered in that Nexus has been tested and is guaranteed - as much as is humanly possible - not to crash my computer the minute I link to it. :wink:

The separation between shards is out-of-game, and so an in-game Nexus is unnecessary. I'd rather have a game menu or something - more immersive that way. Also, I don't think that moving avatars through different shards is going to be possible. What if a green and purple polka dotted lizard-man (absurd example, but still) decided to visit the most conservative strict IC shard? First, the computers might not be able to process the person (since they aren't loaded with the information on how to show a green adn purple lizard-man) and secondly, the whole purpose of the shard is ruined.

In-game separation of shards (as opposed to out-of-game shard menus) will only be acheivable if all shards can agree on:
One KI interface (although certain functions could be mysterious charged in certain shards)
One avatar set (any purple skin, tails, etc. would have to be accepted by all or none)
Perhaps one Relto

and still, I think a mainly OOC transfer method should be used


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:17 pm 
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In-game shard transfers should link KI numbers only. Your active account on any target shard would determine your settings upon transfer. That avoids the whole lizard-man problem. And you could link your own approximate avatar accounts together. Account linkage can be left up to the user and a domain transfer-like confirmation process between shards. The protocol could be built into the main trunk, but if a shard chooses a fork without the prococol, transfers to that shard are simply unavailable. It would be up to the shard owners to opt in to such a thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Kero wrote:
Now, I realize fully that the URU I want to play is the "canon" version that was created by Cyan with Fan Ages added. I also realize that there are all kinds of "versions" of the game that are possible - including ones where ordinary folks can fly and sport purple skin, not just purple hair. :lol: Truth is, I would be curious to visit these various "versions" just to see what they've come up with but not if it means that I have to download - again and again - the complete game.
Agreed - but you never had to do that in UU. There was a vnode_cache folder for each shard you visited to hold the changes, but the basic initial download was unchanged. [You still had to log out of one shard and into another: setting up the new vault may mean that has to continue]

You keep saying this about the vnode_cache, but that is not at all what it was for. It had nothing to do with different versions of ages, or of KIs or of whatever it is you are trying to talk about.

What it had in it was things like KI pictures and text notes, as well as the other metadata used by the game, such as the information about what you (and others) are wearing, what books you have on your shelves, what Relto pages you have enabled, what ages you have invites to, etc. It was a cache of vault nodes, not a repository of diffs.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Thanks. I sit corrected. That makes more sense than my fuzzy recollection. I suppose the clue is in the "node" bit of vnode_cache. :)

The point I was trying to make hasn't changed. We got shard-specific changes, not a complete download, when we went to a new shard.

And I'd missed v for vault. :oops:


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
The point I was trying to make hasn't changed. We got shard-specific changes, not a complete download, when we went to a new shard.


Uru doesn't do different versions very well either, if you add something to a PRP, say a 100MB download, when you head to the other shard it will download the whole file of the older version and replace it.

There would be a requirement to build in a decent differencing system that with ease could use previous versions in the client.

A Client Subversion for your ages, per se:)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:49 pm 
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MustardJeep wrote:
I believe one of the Cyan people mentioned in another thread adrianbrooks that there had not been a single case of creepy people in MO:UL so rest easy. Eleri was most likely referring to Cyan keeping MO:UL E for Everyone but many people wanting areas where they can behave a bit more uh grownup. <snicker> Though in the case of the average explorer just turning the text filters off in a Age would get it labeled as MA by the community. :lol:


When asked if he spoke as a Cyan employee he said no...
When asked direct questions about the liabilities... he made no comment... well... contact Cyan legal.

The view that it has never happened in the entire life of the game has not been confirmed by Cyan legal, AFAIK.

That it has never happened is not a rational reason to avoid protecting server operators and children. Painting a bull’s-eye on kids will create a liability for server operators and in my mind would be direct violation of COPPA.

Rusty_Russell wrote:
Kero wrote:
I want only one client - one point to get into the game and just one download of the basic Cyan Ages and those Fan made Ages that I have chosen to keep on my Relto book shelf.
So do I.


With the viewer (client side software) Open Source I expect there will be various versions of it with various features. I expect that all viewers will be interchangeable and one can use whichever one they like. That happens in several VW’s now.

Downloading the ages, Cyan and fan, once is certainly more than enough. Since those downloads will incur a cost to server operators, I would think a ‘one download’ idea would have priority and be implemented. Even better is the idea to develop the code to only download the changes (diff's or patch files).

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:
Kero wrote:
The separation between shards is out-of-game, and so an in-game Nexus is unnecessary. I'd rather have a game menu or something - more immersive that way. Also, I don't think that moving avatars through different shards is going to be possible. What if a green and purple polka dotted lizard-man (absurd example, but still) decided to visit the most conservative strict IC shard? First, the computers might not be able to process the person (since they aren't loaded with the information on how to show a green adn purple lizard-man) and secondly, the whole purpose of the shard is ruined.


I think the majority of the community is with you on this point. Also, as things are now, I am sure a player cannot make or wear purple poka-dot skin that is seen by all players. If we make change to allow various shirts and pants, that may change. If server/client code is changed, well… anything is possible… but the server and client have to cooperate to show the same thing to all, so unless one elects to use the revised client with a matching server… they would never see the odd AV’s.

As much as I like the idea of better AV's, clothes and hair... adding those will create some problems keeping things kid friendly. Changing AV's into dragons kinda breaks the mood... HOWEVER, people do like dragons... of course we have no idea how dragons and bahro might or might not get alone...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Downloading the ages, Cyan and fan, once is certainly more than enough. Since those downloads will incur a cost to server operators, I would think a ‘one download’ idea would have priority and be implemented. Even better is the idea to develop the code to only download the changes (diff's or patch files).
One common fan-hosted, fan-run data server is a possibility, but needs a collective decision. I wouldn't expect a fan data server to host the Cyan content, or the Cyan data server to host fan content.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:05 pm 
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As a player who has only the most superficial comprehension (i.e. making my best guesses) of any of the technical discussions around this stuff, I'd like to second everything that Kero said. I'm speaking from the point of view of a player who just wants to be in Uru with the minimum of hassle and discontinuity, and without disproportionate appropriation of my computer resources.

I've been outspoken about letting open source be open, and letting people do whatever. I think they will anyway. I don't think any Guild, consortium or fan initiated structure is going to stop or control it, and I think it would be a huge waste of time and energy to try. (A much better bet is to put the energy in to rebuilding - and extending - an Uru people want to spend time in.)

That said, I don't personally want to be negotiating my way blindly and uninformed around a bunch of versions of Uru, with a separate installation on my poor machine for every one of them. I want to pick and choose the Urus I'm likely to be comfortable in, especially if there are separate installations to be made. I don't care in the least if other people pick what I choose. I want to conserve my resources and time and be able to find my friends and see new and wonderful Ages that work without having to jump through a lot of hoops. I'm a lot more likely to be adventurous and a real explorer if redundancy is minimized.

(I hope this makes sense. I've been trying to put these thoughts down at odd little moments all day... :roll: )

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:31 pm 
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The natural order of things will likely be to align with user preference. A single client is clearly a strong user preference. A single shard - not quite as strong. Those forking over to other clients, servers and shards should inherently be aware of the consequences because it will be their preference. Those satisfying the greatest number of users will tend to be the most successful in terms of significance. Those satisfying themselves and a few people could be just as happy if success is measured that way.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:24 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
A single client is clearly a strong user preference. A single shard - not quite as strong.


It could be strong, but there are too many people saying that it can't be done, because they are too hung up on what the technical limitations where durring Until Uru.

If we can work out getting some high powered gear and funding some servers together for a database cluster, or set up some replication systems, via an owners group or alike. There is nothing to stop the owners group running the database servers and letting "shard owners" connect to the database across the WAN.

Even durring Until Uru the server was modular, allowing the particular segements of the server to run on other PC's to reduce load.

We've been told that the servers are now more easy to distribute, but many have said and pointed out we will be hindered by the database technology, so we do that the old fashioned way, however the rest can be distributed correctly.

At the very least I would like to get some people together and get some tests done when we get the server software, to see if it is possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:35 am 
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There is nothing to stop the owners group running the database servers and letting "shard owners" connect to the database across the WAN.
Interrrresting... One group provides and maintains a database cluster to which everyone is joined (see net8), whilst another (or more than one) group provides the data servers for the ages. That could work. [As DarK said on page 2 :)]


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:39 am 
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DarK wrote:
At the very least I would like to get some people together and get some tests done when we get the server software, to see if it is possible.

The Guilds are probably doing this, and I know a project is already being organized on OpenURU.org for the purpose.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:05 am 
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To Rusty_Russell, DarK, Gehn et al......

Thanks for your reponses to my post. After I did it I had the feeling that I was posting a player's wish list that really was just that - a wish list not technically feasible. Your responses lead me to the caustiously optimistic belief that maybe what I was discribing is feasible. 8) And that over time something like it might actually happen. Now if it does I would be one very happy camper - er - player. :wink: :lol:

@ Gehn.... I see where you are coming from re having a game menu to get to the various versions of URU rather then an in game Nexus. I would be willing to go with it with this proviso - that I don't have to log out of one version of the game in order to access another. In other words - as a player I want to be able to go from URU version A (Canon content only) to URU version S (purple skin and mermaid tails allowed) as seamlessly as I go from Relto to my Neighborhood. Does that make any since? Technically - could it even be done?

PS: Eleri - thanks for your OP. The discussions are really quite fascinating.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:22 am 
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Kero wrote:
Technically - could it even be done?
Probably only by you building in the ages you're going to see before you actually start the game. I see O-S as a kind of pick-and-mix: everyone starts off with vanilla (Cyan canon) and adds the extra flavours of their choice before playing.

I second Kero's PS, Eleri. Good thread.

I've just been reminded of something else. No-one really ever gets exactly what they want. I suppose the question with a lot of this is "Can you live with it?".

Chores and URU. Hmmm. This has got me thinking. How about...?

1) Information about the age - description, rating, etc - out of game. [GoMe listing?]
2) Adding / updating an age - via the nexus: every client initially sees an age "stub" of all available ages - just a picture perhaps. [That implies that the client goes and picks up some information about the possible ages from a repository before displaying the stub]. Clicking on it begins the download (or just links to it if it's there already). [The client sees any / all data servers as one] [The nexus serves as the link to a "ULM"].
3) Deleting an age - out of game, I'd expect. An external link to the same "ULM"? [Conditional options in the "ULM" - add if accessed internally, add and delete if accessed externally]

ULM = URU Library (download) Manager


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:57 am 
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Kero wrote:
@ Gehn.... I see where you are coming from re having a game menu to get to the various versions of URU rather then an in game Nexus. I would be willing to go with it with this proviso - that I don't have to log out of one version of the game in order to access another. In other words - as a player I want to be able to go from URU version A (Canon content only) to URU version S (purple skin and mermaid tails allowed) as seamlessly as I go from Relto to my Neighborhood. Does that make any since? Technically - could it even be done?


It depends on if you're talking about just different rules or different data. Having different datasets coexisting would be possible if you were very careful to have all your data not conflict. I doubt this would be possible if the server-owner did not explicitly arrange all the data for you. So for instance, you couldn't just walk into anyone's server seamlessly... just ones that were arranged and connected beforehand for for you to be able to.

Generally unless the server-admin does something really, really special, if there is changed content you'll have to re-start the game (or at the very least log out from the server).

A main initial server-picking list will still be needed since some servers may want your client to be quite different from how it is regularly and you can't really get a new exe while the old one is running. :wink:

I think what Chogon (I think it was he who said this) meant by seamlessly going from server-to-server on a web of different servers was: the whole "server" could have age instances distributed between different machines. This would make sense because the way the UU servers work is they spawn a new thread for each age-instance in use. Having something similar but between machines wouldn't be too much a stretch.

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