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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:56 am 
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In the end, the strongest will survive. Those which are the friendliest and those who make it easy for others to enjoy themselves. Those who appeal to the broadest base. Payment is just one of the factors. Having to pay for access could be compensated by stronger content or unique features.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:38 am 
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I can see some sort of compensation with a really big operation like several hundred or thousands of Explorers actively online. I would think this kind of hardware & connection would be costly. Where UU Shards were what, couple hundred with 50 actively online. That falling off over the years.

It will be interesting watching all this play out. URU has been such an interesting game.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:53 am 
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semplerfi wrote:
Nalates wrote:
If someone knows the section and paragraph of the tax code that excludes donations, I would love to have the reference

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p557/ch03.html
Section 501, paragraph C, sub-section 3

We are not communicating...

These are the sections that exclude business entities that achieve non-profit status. If they file all the proper paper work and how they spend the money meets the list of requirements and the IRS approves then they do not have to pay tax on the income, whether it be 'income' as most think of it or a donation freely and randomly given. It does not matter how they get the money it is tax free.

If you are a taxable entity you pay taxes on incoming money whether it be a donation or not. I think veralun is dealing with VAT from the buyer’s side. I’m looking more at the one receiving the money.
Murray wrote:
Going against the grain here to some degree, but it is ever so sad that money, profit, commercialism to some degree is starting to creep in here. Gone are the days when we were all so excited to meet other avies, in some cases the other side of the globe, now money is the purpose to a few. Well I can tell you friends, two things drive me, one, the survival of URU and the continuation of friendships that have accumulated over the years. In fact I even married one of them. Am I going to put up a server? Yes :). Am I going to ask for funds? No way!! To me it would be a privilege to have my friends continue to share the beautiful world of URU with me and I am only to happy to give something back to the community that has been so good to Sophia and myself. Anyway, hope I am not ruffling feathers of some, but to me the most important issue right now is to stick together and get this world we all love back on its feet.

No ruffled feathers… I just don’t see it as you do. That someone wants to cover the cost of running the game is not a problem for me. I see no reason that they should run a game for me for free. I have no problem if they want to… hurray! Nor do I see any decrease in wanting to meet new people. A poll shows 2 of 3 think/want new people in MOOS. Having friends over to share your shard is one thing. Having hundreds may be thousands of strangers in and some trying to trash the place… I hope MOOS is bigger than UU. So, I expect costs to be significant.

Until we see the server code and know what it really takes to run the server and how much bandwidth is consumed by a populated game, we are unsure of the costs. Until servers are up and we can see participation levels we really won’t know our bandwidth need or costs. We (as in community) have ideas and UU experience. Those running games with 100+ inhabitants have cost estimates. In those cases it is not that cheap. So, if that is the scenario we are faced with, I see a definite need for commercialism.

Also, once money changes hands there is liability, which to me means there will be something like ResEng’s in game, the equivalent of moderators on a forum. That is a lot of time and effort. Expecting the community to step up and do it all for free is asking a lot. Think of 50 shards like UU. The Greeters can’t cover them all unless there is some global shard to shard chat channel (which is being looked at). An operator can’t be on 24x7… we can’t have kids harassing the old folks… There is a lot of volunteer work going into MOOS. But sustaining that level of comment over the years and asking a server operator to shell out bucks year after year… I don’t want to have to count on it. I would rather they made a few bucks for their effort. It would at least be a way to show appreciation.

OTOH… If the system scales down to 1 machine and bandwidth use is light a UU type operation may work. One might be able to run from a home connection DOOM server style. It might fit inside a home budget. I have serious doubts about how well such systems will perform, but I can hope.

I just think many people are hopping for good performance and significant population. Like semplerfi writes, a big population could be costly but I think it is what many hope for. I think that is going to incur some significant cost and many hope I am totally wrong, including me.

Whatever the cost, significant or trivial, Whilyam is right… whoever does it best will have the most participants.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:33 am 
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Sorry for not communicating. :oops: That was the closest thing I knew to your question.

Offering your question, 'the tax code that excludes donations', to Google on a 100 hit page. Your question placed number seven. Out of the other ninety nine hits I did not see your question address. :?

If what you ask for can be found we have the fix for our need. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:17 pm 
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"now money is the purpose to a few. Am I going to put up a server? ... Am I going to ask for funds? No way!! "

You must be independently wealthy. I'm not. I need to eat, feed clothe and house my family, and if I can make enough money I can hire other people that need work, want to earn a paycheck to feed and house themselves. Thats actually pretty virtuous when you get right down to it. Nothing sad in that at all.

Jay


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Not sad, but perhaps a tad pretentious, considering what Uru is now and has been in Cyan's hands :wink: We both wish you the best of luck, jmdoggett, and we would never condemn anybody who wishes to make a profit out of it.

No, we are not independently wealthy, but it will be a hobby we shall share with a few friends. Probably such a small scale that hardly anybody will even notice it :D

We did provide a server back in the UU days, we had more fun with them... and it didn't cost us anything either except a tiny bit of bandwidth and a spare computer.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Everyone calls me, Jay. I'm the furthest thing from pretentious! I am hopeful, optimistic and energetic! Thank you for the kind wishes.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:40 pm 
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True, usually a business has a tax burden on any monies received. However, between friends, I can legally give you a gift of up to $11,000.00 a year, and my recipient friend has no tax burden on that. (I can give friends who are a married couple
$20, 000.00 a year....but I can afford neither a single person or a couple at that rate!)

So, if someone has a server, and has costs, I suggest we send them a pm to establish a private friendship. Then I give my friend a gift of $20 to help my friend start their server, then $10 a month after to treat my friend to a cup of coffee.
My friend should have no tax burden at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:58 pm 
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I don't agree with having to be wealthy to run a game server. I know a disabled Vietnam Vet who has a HP ProLiant DL580 G2 he uses as a game server. His income is less than $1000 USD a month. He bought the whole works ready to go on Ebay for less than $270 USD including shipping! He's far from wealthy...but he has fun and enjoys giving others a place to play.

My income is similar to his and I'm looking into getting something like he has for Open Uru.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Oh let the Shard hoppin' begin. YAY!! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Todoni, thanks.

The details are here for those interested: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html

This still means a bunch of paper work for the server operator. While it would be the donor's responsibility to pay the tax, the recipient would have to file to show it is a gift and avoid paying taxes on it.

Preachr46, most everyone in the community is hoping you are right. Cyan says the new MOUL software is very 'scalable'. We just do not know what that means yet. You may want to look at some of the threads here and at GoW, GoMa and OU. Look for posts by Chacal. He is running (or has run) game servers as part of his RL job. Cost may be in direct portion to the number of players on the system. We know UU could be a one machine home connection type mash up. While Chogon has said MOUL is different, he did not give us a hint (AFAIK) about whether a UU type setup is possible.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
semplerfi wrote:
Nalates wrote:
If someone knows the section and paragraph of the tax code that excludes donations, I would love to have the reference

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p557/ch03.html
Section 501, paragraph C, sub-section 3

We are not communicating...


Nalates wrote:
The details are here for those interested: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html

We are not communicating... :lol:

If you had asked about gifts the first time and not donations, any body could have answered you request. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:49 am 
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True enough.

But talking and thinking one thing sort of leans the thinking...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:25 am 
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Everybody is trying, everybody is thinking.

We will get there... :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:27 am 
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What about people who are receiving donations for running shards in other countries?

Local to local donations are not an issue as they a governed under the countries own legislation.

However so far the only thing that has come up is US Regulations, is there an even bigger mine field to cross if you are donating to someone outside your own country?


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