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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
quahog42 wrote:
Nalates wrote:
That the MOUL client has so much power is going to be a problem.

What is this I don't even

We have threads elsewhere that get into this. I am talking about how the client and server talk to each other. The client in MOUL has more control/authority (which is not a technically precise way to describe the problem) over the server because the server side trusts the client more than is practical for an open source game. Cyan could allow that because they had control of both sides i.e., server and client. In open source the server operator has control of only the server being operated. Anyone that chooses to compile a client side program for MOUL/MOOS has control of the client. It will be no problem for griefers to abuse the server.

This is assuming that OS developers won't rearrange that balance to a more traditional server-controlled setup, which is the norm. I have to laugh at Rusty asking if the client is going OS, but I would hope that going OS means the server code as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:22 pm 
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Ed Oscuro... no assumption. Those working with the code say that is how it is now. I did not express the problem well when I was telling Rusty things will have to change in an earlier post and was expanding for quahog42. Those that have worked with the server code are looking at how to change the server side and client side to deal with coming open source security problems and avoid griefers messing with the servers.

One of the needed changes looked at is how to handle a variety of shards and find your friends. So, group chat across shards is being considered. It gives the Greeters a big hand up. The idea being they can hang in their favorite shard and still talk to those in any shard asking for help. Make it easy to find your friends and join up. Plus we would be able to talk about the new things in our fav shard and find out about new things in another.

Many of the new games have some nice communications tools. Some have given thought to how some of those neat features could be used in MOOS. So, I expect lots of change once open source is released. I think many of the communication features in SL could be adapted for MOOS use. The buddy lists work well, groups are way handy and how multiple conversations and conference chats/calls work is all very neat. Expect lots of change over time.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:37 am 
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in reply to the original topic .....................pretty much

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:44 am 
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My point was that I am happy for unbridled changes to the server code, but changes to the client should be as few and as strictly controlled as possible, for usability / storage / security reasons. I would still rather see a common client, however changed it became.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
My point was that I am happy for unbridled changes to the server code, but changes to the client should be as few and as strictly controlled as possible, for usability / storage / security reasons. I would still rather see a common client, however changed it became.

Strictly controlled... Rusty, the idea of open source is to remove control. In open source control only exists in the public code thread stuff that Cyan has said they want to maintain. That means the written source stuff that lives in the public version manager or wiki or however you think of it. The compiled stuff that runs on your workstation is made by downloading the source, changing it if one wants and compiling it (turning it into something you can actually run on your computer) which just can't be controlled by anyone other than you, the workstation owner. Anyone can compile whatever they want and run it. There is no way to stop the special purpose builds. That is by design.

Anyone can take the 'official' source, alter it and compile another version. No mater what we do or want. There is no way for the server to know that has been done unless a couple of things happen. The person changing the code decides to change the version numbering and ID information that is sent to the server or changes the communication data flow. Neither of which they have to do.

Your reasons for wanting control client side are rational. But those issues have to be handled on the server side and in ID'ing the client side (so -you- know what you are downloading and running).

Those that play SL have seen a proliferation of client side viewer versions. We are learning the benefits and problems of that proliferation. You might want to experiment with that and check out what is going on to get a better idea of what we are trying to get across. Try the official viewer and KirstenLee's S18 and Emerald. Or read my reviews (Greenlife Emerald Viewer Review – Continued - gets you into the thread) to see the types of changes people like and are likely to be made.

SL has an 'official' version of their viewer, a release candidate viewer (experimental but being tested as the next official') and a highly experimental viewer that is bleeding edge for power users. I suspect Cyan will have an 'official' client side (viewer) and may be a release candidate one too.

It is the other 2 dozen or so special purpose and 'better' or cool feature added or new tech added viewers that are examples of open source at work/play in SL. A recent Neil Life viewer broke the security rules imposed in client side code. The one making it just said screw that and left them out. Linden Lab had overlooked this and had to make a panic server update across their entire system to move that security code to the server side where it belonged (their viewer used to be proprietary like Cyan's client side is). This is life with open source and is why several realize the server and client in MOOS will have to change.

It looks like you are going to have to settle for being half happy. :? Or change your mind, accept things as they are and be completely happy... :D ...teasing... there will likely be an official client you can use.

And again... since you are not likely to be able to tell what client I am running, why would you care?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:42 pm 
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I care because of the Do not import avatars that have completed PotS days. Look what happened when that was ignored.
Complete freedom on both client and server seems like a recipe for grief to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:00 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
I care because of the Do not import avatars that have completed PotS days. Look what happened when that was ignored.
Complete freedom on both client and server seems like a recipe for grief to me.

This must be fixed on the server. Sure, it would be good if clients didn't do bad things too, but if you are actually trying to prevent a problem of this type, it can only be done on the server.

The reason is that you cannot secure what you do not control. The person running the server does not have absolute control over what the person running the client runs, nor over his OS, nor his hardware, nor his network. Therefore attempting to force/impose/peer-pressure those using a server into running a particular client won't save you. Even if they don't have the source to the client.

Not to mention the client might actually have bugs that harm the server/vault.

So if avatar import breaks the server, fix the server to reject bad imports. Making a client that doesn't do the import might work with your friends, but it's not safe from griefers.

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