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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:20 am 
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Hello! I heard the delay was due to one person, (who was maybe now just a consultant, and not a full time employee with Cyan? Not sure on that one), had the last password to a central piece of the code, and so we can not get access to the code, due to finding a date and time to get this unknown person over to headquarters, and unlock it , or something like that.

This news, of course, set of a storm of offers to volunteer various things to this Unknown Person, so they will have some free time to visit Cyan. Wash the car, walk their dog, mow the lawn, whatever it takes!


It is hard to be patient.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:52 pm 
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C'mon, use some sense people! If it is a password that is needed, then the person does not need to be in Spokane, surely! And if it is some coding that was done by this person, I find it hard to believe that no one else can work on it. The whole thing sounds a bit contrived.
And as far as employee passwords go, every employer that i know wants to know what your password is, or assigns one to you, or has admin access to your machine. The IT guys at my employer can get on my machine from across the country and do all sorts of things.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:39 pm 
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This reminds me of that game we played as kids where a word or phrase would be whispered from one person to the next and you'd see how much it changed from the beginning to the end. :wink:

Todoni wrote:
I heard the delay was due to one person... [who] ...had the last password to a central piece of the code,
Rondini wrote:
C'mon, use some sense people! If it is a password that is needed, then the person does not need to be in Spokane, surely!

No, it's not a simple missing password.

Rondini wrote:
And if it is some coding that was done by this person, I find it hard to believe that no one else can work on it. The whole thing sounds a bit contrived.

Actually, I can think of a lot of reasons why only one person can work on a specific project. I hesitate to voice them here for fear of starting new rumors, but I'll offer the one that would be the simplest. Perhaps this person was the creator of the project and therefore holds a lot of information in their head, and when they finally find the time, it won't take them as long as it would someone else. Cyan just doesn't have the resources to devote to fixing a code for something that is not generating income and the mysterious former employee (MFE) will be doing this work out of the goodness of their heart and love of Uru, but currently has a paying job/project taking priority.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:37 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
This reminds me of that game we played as kids where a word or phrase would be whispered from one person to the next and you'd see how much it changed from the beginning to the end.

Let's cheat the game and reinject the original words:

Chogon wrote:
Hi all,

Sorry for the long time in between updates. The silence was not by design or by any dark undertones. Sadly, there is not much to report. I am *still* waiting for a particular ex-Cyan person to send me code changes that only he can make. I know that sounds odd but unfortunately it is the truth and until I have those changes the open source can't proceed. I know that he has been heavily involved in a major release of the product he is working on, so I understand (a little bit).
After that is done, I may ask for some help from a few chosen individuals to help with readying the sources further.

On a different note: Cyan has been working with another company on something (slightly but completely) different. Of course, I can't reveal anything yet but hopefully something will be available late summer, this year. I know that is coming up quickly and it is taking all of our energies.

I could write a small book about the many transformations that Cyan has gone through over the years. Even though I was not at Cyan from the beginning, there was only one ex-Cyan employee at the time I was hired. For the most of that history, we have been a quiet, shy company that let our products do the talking. With the rise of UruLive that had to change because the game was about community and Cyan sharing itself with that community, albeit in our own shy way. So, after UruLive was canceled, Cyan has reverted back to it roots of being that quiet, shy company again, albeit not quite as shy as before. ;-)

Thanks for everyone's support.
Chogon

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 546#294546

and

Chogon wrote:
Karkadann wrote:
Would it be considered out of place to inquire what code changes need to be made, and assume someone else in the community might be able to help.

It has less to do with something technical and more to do with, well, something else.

Thanks,
Chogon

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 550#294550

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:19 pm 
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matthornb wrote:
I think it'll probably happen.

Since an open source Uru will likely have some free shards that cost nothing to join or use, I think we won't have any trouble convincing non-fans to try the game, either. [...snip...] That plus as a result of the iPhone port of Myst, [...snip...] wishing they could play it online.

Add to all this the fact that open source Uru can survive even if the fanbase remains small. [...snip...]

On the other hand, Open Source Uru would have its production done by fans, who work for free, and thus there would not need to be a large number of players for Uru to be financially viable. [...snip...]

I agree. I think it likely will happen. Like you I think Myst iPhone shows a general appeal still exists. But, I'm not sure what MOOS will look like.

I expect at least 3... I need an adjective for them... ...expected known... shards, i.e, a GoW, GoMa and OpenUru.org. I know there are others and some notorious. However, GoMa will likely be only for testing and in conjunction with GoW. Since GoW is where the writers congregate I can't imagine them not putting up a 'canon strict' shard. OpenUru.org has some different ideas and adjustments to storyline for improved MMO play that I don't know GoW will go along with and think that likely means OU will go do one too.

Free... may be. But get 20 or 40 people concurrently in the game and the bandwidth charges will be significant. The hardware to support 40 concurrent players is not cheap. But all this is speculation until we know how MOUL scales (very well we are told) and whether it scales to a single machine (which we are not told). I think ‘free’ is iffy at best.

I also agree that there will be some free shards. So, free is possible. Performance and lag may be issues on free shards. We will have to wait and see.

That fans will do the creation work and reduce cost is true. How production and demand for content will balance is going to be interesting and challenging. I encourage people to learn about building for Uru. I believe that in a future Uru building will be a big part of the game. Can we make clothes, tattoos, hair, etc?

@Tai'lahr & JWPlatt, I agree. In other threads the ‘code’ issue and ‘one person’ have been discussed with all the speculation of what it might be about. Along with all the offers of help and work-arounds. This is some technical difficulty they do NOT want to discuss, not a plan to delay the release.

Eventually we will have something.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
I expect at least 3... I need an adjective for them... ...expected known... shards, i.e, a GoW, GoMa and OpenUru.org. I know there are others and some notorious. However, GoMa will likely be only for testing and in conjunction with GoW. Since GoW is where the writers congregate I can't imagine them not putting up a 'canon strict' shard. OpenUru.org has some different ideas and adjustments to storyline for improved MMO play that I don't know GoW will go along with and think that likely means OU will go do one too.

It would certainly be appropriate to follow OpenURU.org's philosophy of putting words and ideas into practice and open a shard. OpenURU.org isn't just for talk, you know. ;)

It's my personal preference to not deviate far from standard. It's hard work to be a pioneer and we all have real lives. But we also want to allow for positive freedom of expression and contribution. I do not desire to control the path OpenURU.org takes but simply add my thoughts to the process for others to hear. So it might not follow my preferences. We would probably propose putting up a shard on the main trunk code (canon) with subshards (I'll not be calling them front end shards, because shards are shards unless you really want to abtract a front end shard to integrate all shards) to deal with custom development such as changing the gameplay of how Uru begins, adding a fully implemented "Descent," or modifying how instancing works. That gives people choice under one roof. So if you want it your way, don't argue - just implement it and we'll take it for a spin.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:22 pm 
Will it come to life and will it grow or even be sustainable are two different questions.

I feel only somewhat confident that eventually some sort of code will be released by Cyan.

From what I have watched over the past 4 years or so, I have very little hope that either Cyan or what remains of the "Community" have what it takes to leave egos and entrenched expectations at the door and work toward a common goal.

At best, I would speculate that a tiny and cloistered set of qualified developers will find themselves inundated by an avalanche of angst, spouting from a much larger, impatient, fragmented, demanding, and unqualified set of fans with an equal number of ideas of how things "should" be done.

The very nature of Cyan's products and the length of time since anything new has emerged from these worlds almost guarantees that the remaining population is so tightly attached to the idea that there is only one "correct" way to do anything, that a healthy and growing open source effort is likely to be only a mirage in the distance.

Watch the video about poisonous people killing open source projects.

I have no hope that a focused and sustainable effort toward a common goal can emerge from what remains of the URU community. At most I can imagine a fragmented world of small personal spaces each with their own small populations.


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 Post subject: Is it just a dream?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:53 pm 
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I am forever here! and if waiting=dreaming... I refuse to wake up! We are the faithful, we are the huddled masses.. yearningggggg.... we ARE the believers! Cyan is King! a good and loving King, who will take care of his followers..in good time, in good time...........

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Regnad Kcin wrote:
[...snip...]Watch the video about poisonous people killing open source projects.

I have no hope that a focused and sustainable effort toward a common goal can emerge from what remains of the URU community. At most I can imagine a fragmented world of small personal spaces each with their own small populations.

Ouch... I think I can understand your pessimism. I don't share it, but I won't say you are wrong or that your viewpoint is unfounded.

The recent dust-up over the ...underground... shard is a wakeup call forewarning of possible future shard wars similar to those that raged in the UU era. Some of the posts in those threads are brutal. However, the issue and the way it came down are an example of when personal attacks have a justification. Personal actions, statements and behavior showed an inconsistency in the ...underground... shard operator's statements. Eventually people were criticized and some edited their posts and apologized... which is why I encourage people to review the Wiki'pedia's policy on personal attacks and understand when they are appropriate and not.

The video you reference is not about 'poisonous people' killing open source projects. The video is about how to handle the problems poisonous people cause. It is a 55 minute video by the Google Gurus of open source. (link) We can learn from the past (UU shard wars) and prepare (watch the video and adopt similar policies and strategies) or not. For those wanting something to do to help MOOS/OSMO... start with watching the video. If enough of us decide to learn how to keep an online community healthy, I believe pessimism will be unfounded. If not, Regnad may be correct and we may well repeat the shard wars.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:20 pm 
I don't think there's any need to pay too much attention to prophets of doom. A while back the message was that Cyan would never no way no how even consider releasing any of their code as open source. Of course, they haven't released it yet and they may still not, but if they don't, for any other reason than that it is simply not possible, they might be in a somewhat embarrassing position, having made such firm and unequivocal commitments to their intention.

In any large and disparate group of people it's a safe bet to predict some dissension. It would be ridiculous to deny the possibility. Just as unlikely, though, is that it will be allowed to overshadow or hinder the rebirth of online Uru. There is far more willingness in the community here to accommodate whatever form open source Uru eventually takes than some might believe. After all, what is there more flexible than open source?

I don't actually believe in "poisonous people," though I do believe in people who, for reasons of their own, take some pleasure in behaving poisonously. I think that with care they can eventually be discouraged and motivated to go elsewhere (often with voluble declarations that they are no longer interested anyway and have "moved on") and may well find happier pursuits elsewhere. I certainly hope so.

And yes, I'm still here too, checking every day, and still positive and hopeful.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Check out Regnad Kcin's post again ...

It mentions ego's ... :roll:

I can only agree with Regnad Kcin's post, and point out that it is more about what you can offer NOW against "how long you've been around" or "done in the past"

Sadly the elitest get more praise around here than they should get credit for.

Its the people who continue to give, who should get the credit.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:02 pm 
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If you want to do something useful to bring Open Source URU closer (and have the skillset), check out Whilyam's thread here.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:27 pm 
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"The video you reference is not about 'poisonous people' killing open source projects. The video is about how to handle the problems poisonous people cause."

If you miss the idea that the video is about both of these ideas and not exclusively one or the other, you are to some degree exhibiting the dualistic either/or perfectionist mindset that kills so many projects before they are even born. Hardly anyone ever sees these aborted attempts and even fewer remember them. My experience suggests that there are many more stillborn projects than there are successful births, and of the successful births, even fewer that grow and mature.

I've watched the Uru phenomenon for years from a variety of perspectives and I see little evidence of an integral viewpoint emerging from Cyan and/or the fan base that could produce a sustainable open source effort similar to any of the "unified Uru" hopes so often expressed by so many. Mostly what has emerged are simply clouds of words that wander, merge and vanish. Only the smallest fraction of clouds ever demonstrate any of their potential for rain.

This isn't pessimism. It is tradition. It would be interesting to see a change in tradition. From time to time I wander back here to look for one. Perhaps one day I'll be pleasantly surprised.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Regnad Kcin wrote:
If you miss the idea that the video is about both of these ideas and not exclusively one or the other, you are to some degree exhibiting the dualistic either/or perfectionist mindset that kills so many projects before they are even born

May be. I don’t think there is that simple direct ‘if this then must be that’ or a this-thinking-will-always-cause-this-result relationship in these concepts. Nor do I think one can miss the concept it works either way or that even if one does miss the concept that doing so then defines one’s mindset. People are more complex than that.

What I find interesting is the attitude in the community by people that one will do nothing but wait for others to do something or change. Fortunately many move ahead regardless. The video is for those moving ahead.

Not seeing an ‘integral viewpoint’, if you mean an essential constituent of the viewpoint, is not surprising. The Mysterium video with Rand speaking (see 1:05+/- in and 1:28+/- read as hh:mm) shows he has no concrete plan yet, only a generality of a scenario/vision where lots of nice things happen with few specifics and lots of possibilities. One of which is he would like for Cyan to run the servers, which could eliminate many problems and create others. But will reality allow that? No one knows and Rand clearly states it depends on circumstances. While he has a general direction, nothing is in concrete yet and many things will affect the final path taken. Other than a firm commitment to fan created content and some form of open source everything else seemed up in the air.

Rand does elaborate on the hold up and what it is that has to be removed from the source code before it can be passed along, plug-ins... They must be removed because Cyan does not have the ownership needed to pass them along to us. Those plug-ins were used to accomplish tasks in the game development. If those are removed, it may just mean some task has to be done manually but it may also mean some feature is lost. If the later, we will need to replace that with some code written by the community. We would need to know and understand what the plug-in did to create a replacement. I suspect getting that information out of the programmer's head and into text is the bigger hold up.

In the mean time various other groups/teams/individuals are looking to start up more shards (likely alcugs based). Whilyam's thread (Volunteer) is about another group forming to work with Cyan. On GoW there is a 'please let me in' thread. So, the problems of working together in small teams, a long Uru fan tradition (if 6 years or so can be considered long), needs the tools/concepts the Google team discusses. As they point out at the end, these principals are applicable to other types of online communities than just coding efforts, i.e., forums, fan clubs/associations (guilds), etc. It is a matter of how and whether we learn to use them and adapt them to the Uru fan base community... or wait for others to d it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:15 am 
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Well, the beauty of the whole thing is that everyone doesn't have to work towards a common goal. Once the source code is released, I think that there will be "official" shards (as in not illegal, OK since the code has been released) coming up, more than one, and people will find their way to the shards. There may be various threads of code released, but I think that's OK too. I think that groups of people will come together to modify the code and play on the shards.

As for Cyan running the servers, or making new ages, I'm not, as they say "holding my breath". Yes, Rand Miller may have a vision, something he'd like to see happen - but none of that has to happen, which is good. Look, they can't even release the source code in a timely fashion - I'm not assuming that Cyan is going to be able to run shards or make ages. All they need to do is officially release the source code. And if various groups splinter off and make different versions of the client, and different server code - I think that's OK too. We'll still get to play.

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