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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:53 am 
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And if various groups splinter off and make different versions of the client,
I very much hope not. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Yeah - me too. I'm hoping for "best case scenario" - one client. But the good news is that, even if we get multiple versions of everything, we'll still be able to play.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:08 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
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And if various groups splinter off and make different versions of the client,
I very much hope not. :D


Can't skim the cream if you don't let it rise...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Why would you want to change the client? It's the servers that will determine which ages will play.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:33 pm 
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I think we already know we are going to have multiple clients. There are KI changes and chat changes that fans have asked for and people have written into the client side. So, to some extent that has already happened. There are a number of things fans have asked for not yet added that are likely coming changes.

When we look at other MMO's we are seen more and more of them developing multiple client sides. There is the idea that the entire web will go 3D and we will have numbers of browsers just as we do now, i.e., Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, etc. Does it matter to anyone whether I use Firefox or Chrome?

I use 3 viewers in SL for special purposes. One is very good for building/modeling, one for photography (uses dynamic shadows) and another for use in RPG's (high fps rates). There are another 4 I use to see the coming features. Not one has all the best things in one client side program nor is there agreement on which features should be included in the 'official' viewer. I see the people in Uru fandom as having similar varied preferences too. (Official in this case being the one the server operators support.)

SL's release of the viewer code to open source and conversion to C++ has opened the possibility of improved frame per second (fps) rates, improved bandwidth use and a number of user interface improvements that are not in the official viewer. Since that release to OS the game is improving at faster and faster rates. In January my typical fps was 10 to 15. I am seeing 40 to 60 now (400% better). Dynamic shadows in March would pull fps down to 2 to 3 fps and now the beta's are at 9-12 fps. People with old Mac computers that were barely usable at 6 fps are now able to run at 15. Fans can improve the client side of the game.

Rusty_Russell, to your question, it is the client side that determines render speed and resolution and has the user interface. These are all things people want to see improved and changed.

Why would it matter what client side someone else uses if you are free to choose and use the one you like?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:55 pm 
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We would end up with multiple clients and multiple servers. For the space that would take up if nothing else, I think that's unworkable. UU was one client, many shards. Why not the same for OSMO?

I think you'd find that the client that works with the most servers would be adopted.

How would you keep multiple clients separated?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:20 pm 
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I'll use fewer words than Nalates.

Optimization and enhanced/upgraded visuals; possibly security changes.

Different versions of the client may or may not require discrimination between shards. It would depend(primarily) on what/if was changed in the communications routines. This discrimination can also be used to 'enhance' security. If a shard is unfamiliar with a given client; it can deny access. Do you think that shard admins would really want a client compiled by Joe Unknown/Cracker to have connection privileges? Plasma is different from other MMO software in that the 'client is god'.

Client versioning isn't going to just be a side-effect of open source; it's almost going to be a necessity.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:14 pm 
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I want one standard client that can be used on all shards. :D I would rather no changes at all were done to the current Cyan client than many clients.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:34 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
I want one standard client that can be used on all shards. :D I would rather no changes at all were done to the current Cyan client than many clients.


Then you, my friend, are living in a fantasy world...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:20 am 
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Rusty_Russell, Teedyo points out the why very succinctly.

The SL viewers work with a number of similar virtual worlds not just Second Life. The game industry is working towards a 3D world standard protocol. So, just as any browser can see a web page so eventually any viewer will be able to look at any 3D world. So, AdamJohnson’s blunt assessment is … pretty much right on.

That the MOUL client has so much power is going to be a problem. With the client side open source there will be abuse. Most anyone that compiles the client side game is going to be capable of spoofing the server as to which version of the client is running. The server side operators will never be able to tell unless the coder screws up and crashes the server.

Last week Linden Lab (creators of Second Life) was making panic updates to server side code because of a new viewer named Neil Life. The coder removed all the ‘permissions’ code thus effectively allowing the user to steal anything in SL. That is just part of the problem with open source.

The server sends out a steam of data that the client responds to and we see the game and other avatars. The client sends back a data stream that tells the server what we are doing so that it can tell others. As long as the two can understand each other it all works. My KI can look and behave differently than yours and you would never know. So, why do you think we should all use the same client for MOOS?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:07 am 
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Regnad Kcin wrote:
Will it come to life and will it grow or even be sustainable are two different questions.

I feel only somewhat confident that eventually some sort of code will be released by Cyan.

From what I have watched over the past 4 years or so, I have very little hope that either Cyan or what remains of the "Community" have what it takes to leave egos and entrenched expectations at the door and work toward a common goal.

At best, I would speculate that a tiny and cloistered set of qualified developers will find themselves inundated by an avalanche of angst, spouting from a much larger, impatient, fragmented, demanding, and unqualified set of fans with an equal number of ideas of how things "should" be done.

The very nature of Cyan's products and the length of time since anything new has emerged from these worlds almost guarantees that the remaining population is so tightly attached to the idea that there is only one "correct" way to do anything, that a healthy and growing open source effort is likely to be only a mirage in the distance.

Watch the video about poisonous people killing open source projects.

I have no hope that a focused and sustainable effort toward a common goal can emerge from what remains of the URU community. At most I can imagine a fragmented world of small personal spaces each with their own small populations.


maybe it's just me not reading this right.. but I just simply can't get any constructiveness out of your post!
who is it that you are talking about? egos?
I was'nt even playing the game when it was available (duo to my type of credit card that was'nt useable at gametab), and still I feel part of a strooong community.

I see no ego's here.. Everyone (who is capeable at some level) is doing so much thoughtwork for this project. Wanting to help. Looking forwards to the possible opening of OSMO.
Maybe they are not qualified for helping, but all the efford that a lot people show is more than enough to show us that the community is HERE. Still alive. Maybe not growing. Maybe it seems like it's dying sometimes. But it's not! Everyone is still here in the hidden. Not checking the forums anymore because they feel like using their energy on something that is certain.

But when the time comes - everyone will move together to find the best solution!
As far as I can understand, there was a solid system in the community back in the days. These "guilds" who maintained certain parts of the game-experience. These same people are still here. The websites for these guilds are still active.

Ofcourse there will be attempts to create new such guilds, new private shards and so on, But these little "ego" projects will either live or die.

But the original community will ofcourse stick together. That is what they are longing for.
The old times in the cavern..

I'm more concerned about time and money. Will there be enough for the remains of Cyan to make it?
And will we ever be officially updated again?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:36 am 
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I'm lost here. I seem to be being argued against from opposite views.
Will the client be opened up to open source?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:49 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Will the client be opened up to open source?

Yes, that is what Cyan has said they wish to do; and yes, allowing people to modify the client is the right and necessary avenue. Unfettered modification is a purpose of open sourcing. Unification isn't.

Regnad Kcin wrote:
I have no hope that a focused and sustainable effort toward a common goal can emerge from what remains of the URU community. At most I can imagine a fragmented world of small personal spaces each with their own small populations.

Not only do I agree, I see that as the best of all possibilities. Smaller groups can be more concise in their goals; where you have no hope for a "common goal" to break past peoples' egos, I hold definite hope that some of those egos will carry uncommon goals to interesting conclusions. I would be, and am, interested in interesting and varied conclusions. Assuming Cyan's plans hold.

Nalates wrote:
That the MOUL client has so much power is going to be a problem.

What is this I don't even

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:42 pm 
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quahog42 wrote:
Not only do I agree, I see that as the best of all possibilities. Smaller groups can be more concise in their goals; where you have no hope for a "common goal" to break past peoples' egos, I hold definite hope that some of those egos will carry uncommon goals to interesting conclusions. I would be, and am, interested in interesting and varied conclusions. Assuming Cyan's plans hold.


please explain what you meen because I don't understand it :shock: :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:00 pm 
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quahog42 wrote:
Nalates wrote:
That the MOUL client has so much power is going to be a problem.

What is this I don't even

We have threads elsewhere that get into this. I am talking about how the client and server talk to each other. The client in MOUL has more control/authority (which is not a technically precise way to describe the problem) over the server because the server side trusts the client more than is practical for an open source game. Cyan could allow that because they had control of both sides i.e., server and client. In open source the server operator has control of only the server being operated. Anyone that chooses to compile a client side program for MOUL/MOOS has control of the client. It will be no problem for griefers to abuse the server.

quahog42 wrote:
Regnad Kcin wrote:
I have no hope that a focused and sustainable effort toward a common goal can emerge from what remains of the URU community. At most I can imagine a fragmented world of small personal spaces each with their own small populations.

Not only do I agree, I see that as the best of all possibilities. Smaller groups can be more concise in their goals; where you have no hope for a "common goal" to break past peoples' egos, I hold definite hope that some of those egos will carry uncommon goals to interesting conclusions. I would be, and am, interested in interesting and varied conclusions. Assuming Cyan's plans hold.

I agree this is a good thing… small groups building alternate MOOS’s …moos i… The sustainable part is up in the air. I don’t know. On the face of it I would say it’s impossible. The community has done the impossible before. So, I would not discount the community’s ability to survive.

As for unity… never gonna happen. The only thing I have ever seen this entire community agree on is that they like Uru. Open source will give the factions the freedom to explore their ideas and choices and I see that as a good thing. If Rand finds away for Cyan to run the servers then I think that choice and freedom goes away, which will be a problem for many in the community, others will love it.

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