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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:59 am 
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Yes, maths people are very literal but unfortunately I don't have the mathematical language for this to convey what I'm trying to say.

My argument has changed. I was wrong about 16:9 and 4:3 being the same, but I have said that several times already.

This is my last go at being understood.

Think of an aspect ratio as a coin. On one side of the coin the aspect ratio is a rectangular box 16x by 9y or 4x by 3y etc etc. On the other side of the coin the aspect ratio is a fraction - 16/9, 4/3 etc. My mistake was to miss the fraction.

What I'm trying to get others to do is to look at the aspect ratio as a box and manipulate that.

What I don't have is a means to describe a transform on (4x:3y) by (4x:3y) to get (16x:9y) (even though I can draw it) - maybe because there isn't one - and that's all I'm trying to do now.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:22 pm 
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What's the point of trying to make up an aspect ratio in tiles unless your pixels are non-square?(I had a screen like that once. Making pictures on it was interesting.)

The two sides of your coin are the same. The "aspect ratio" of a "box" is the fractional representation of one dimension divided by the other, and trying to look at it the way you are just confuses people... which may explain a few things.

At this point, you may as well just shrug off the fact that 16x9 happens to resemble 4^2 x 3^2 as a coincidence like the rest of us have. Everyone has acknowledged that you can produce a 16x9 grid by laying out a grid of 4x3 boxes which is 4 wide and 3 tall. We just can't figure out any reason why you would want to do so.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:02 pm 
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An aspect ratio is not a box. Boxes have aspect ratios. Aspect ratios describe how the dimensions of a box are related. Transform a box and the aspect ratio changes. You can not change/"transform" an aspect ratio directly -- rather, you must transform the box, then, by definition, the aspect ratio changes.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:13 pm 
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Quote:
Aspect ratios describe how the dimensions of a box are related.

Thanks, Herohtar. At least we now have a box to consider, which was what I was aiming for. I now have to go and find out more about transforming boxes.

Volfram, I am trying to look at the box as a whole, not one dimension divided by another. I was going wrong when I ignored this altogether, though, which I'm sure added to the confusion. Whilst I don't believe in the coincidence I don't have the mathematical proof, so at this point we will have to agree to differ.


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Quote:
Aspect ratios describe how the dimensions of a box are related.

Thanks, Herohtar. At least we now have a box to consider, which was what I was aiming for.


Now thinking outside of box.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:23 pm 
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I hope that when the source is released we aren't going to have a lot of backseat driving with people going "oh but how can it be done." Just let stuff happen.

As I said a looong while ago...you just set the FOV, bam, done. I really don't see the point of all this discussion.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:44 pm 
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Setting the FOV is not enough. You also have to adjust the ratio.

FOV = angle
ratio = shape

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:08 am 
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Ed Oscuro wrote:
I hope that when the source is released we aren't going to have a lot of backseat driving with people going "oh but how can it be done." Just let stuff happen.

I never thought I'd see the bikeshed problem applied to simple math.


Anyway, this will be a simple non-issue with MOUL when it's open-sourced, and is probably non-trivial to hack proper support into Uru:CC.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:37 pm 
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I think the main problem was the KI, as there was no way to fix that. Even though it's warned that avatars will still look stretched, I haven't seen this when I've played with the widescreen patch.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Wow. :shock:

I will say that a picture is worth a thousand words. (or however many have been said in this topic so far)

I played MOUL on two computers. One was a regular screen and one was a wide screen. When I looked at the game with the wide screen, I saw *more* of the area I was looking at, not a wider version of the same thing. Here is a perfect case in point, done with pictures. The bookshelf is one of the greatest examples.

Normal screen view...
Image


Widescreen view...
Image


If you want to see MOUL in its wide beauty, take a look at the images on my Widescreen Web Page.

http://www.mtn-man.org/mystURUscreenshotswide.html

You cannot see all of Relto Island in the normal game like I could in widescreen. The pyramid in Kadish can be seen totally in widescreen. My favorite was the balcony in Ahnonay. You don't get that view unless you have wide screen, the full tramway ride and the rotating pod structure complete. Argue all you want about the aspect ratio, but my two pictures above show that I was seeing more on the edges in widescreen.

Enjoy the Widescreen Web Page. I took a couple of hundred various widescreen screen shots.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:02 pm 
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I don't know about those other pictures, but I do know you could see all of the Relto island in non-widescreen because I took a screenshot just like that one that I used as my desktop background. I may still have it; I'll see if I can find it for comparison when I get home.

EDIT: It appears I didn't remember it correctly -- my image is missing a few of the small islands on the left side. So it seems MOUL did increase the FOV in widescreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:24 am 
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Does any of this make a difference if the MOOS client window is made adjustable rather than 4 or 5 fixed sizes?

It isn't like the whole 3D virtual world has to change to fit the screen. MOUL is not like a fixed size TV image to be stretched across various screen sizes.

Image

Image

Image

Image

I left the stats panel (upper right) in the images so something would be a fixed size.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:05 pm 
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To me, the best place to see that the MOUL 16:10 picture wasn't quite right was in the pods.

I purchased a new monitor during the course of MOUL and the large, circular windows on my old 4:3 screen at 1024x768 resoltion became ellipsoid on my new 16:10 screen at 1440x900.

I'd post a screenshot or two for comparison, but that hard disk is currently in the fridge for a few days before I attempt file-recovery before sending it back to the manufacturer under warranty for repair/replace.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Inferiority, I suspect you used full screen for MOUL rather than windowed and I don't think MOUL had 1440/900 - 1.6 - 16:10 support. But I don't remember. I played in 1024 windowed mode to improve performance.

1280x1024 - 1.25 - 4:3 +/-
1280x960 - 1.333 - 4:3

Are the largest windowed sizes in CC. They look fine on any screen in windowed mode. The image stretches when one uses full screen on 16:10 computer screens. The circular cursor becomes an elipse.

But the Uru world is a 3D model and can be rendered at any size and any window ratio one wants. Just import an age into Blender and play with it. That is the advantage of real time render. It is just the old MOUL client was not updated to use the newer gigantic screens. They likely hard coded the ratios and that is why you see a stretch. There was no way to tell it to use the whole screen. All the newer games allow for the varied screen sizes and ratios. The SL images show how 3D models render to any window size.

MOUL won't need to be redone like Myst would to change screen ratios. MOUL is a 3D model with real time render and Myst is pre-rendered images that stretch to fit the screen. Wide screen MOOS is not likely to be a big problem to change.

Even if we start out with MOUL in 4:3 ratio the 1280x1024 just about fills a 1680x1050 screen from top to bottom.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:22 pm 
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1280x1024 is 5:4, not 4:3.

I'm pretty sure I ran MOUL in full-screen at 1440x900 on my laptop...

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