To Cyan

EthanEver · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:13 am

I can easily copy and paste any one of Salvador Dalì's painitngs, but would I have his genius to even imagine anything remotely similar to his works had he not created them first. :roll:

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

Except, Cyan isn't Salvador Dali, nor is Uru a painting.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:20 pm

The point is still there. You can make an age per month like everyone want, but than this age will be small and not so challenging. On the other hand, you can make an age per several months, which would result in a very good age, like, say Teledahn (and yes teledahn was a great age). Frankly there is nothing wrong with a small age per month, the problem is that's the only thing they could do in MOUL, and when a game is built on these ages it's not very fun.

They did what they could with what they had. Saying they were slacking around, copy pasting stuff when they could build amazing new things every month is untrue.

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

Except, the trouble is, they /didn't/ make Teledahn during MOUL.

Everything they /did/ make, was either pre-existing, or a copy and paste. With two exceptions. Jalak, and Minkata.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I am however saying: "Why wasn't there more?"

They could've released a lot more of these copy-paste type things.

Another thing to note: Why were things like ahnonnay, k'veer, Myst, ahnonnay cathedral, er'cana, er'cana city silo released so late? Seriously. They should've been released pretty early down the line. Except, K'veer was the last thing they released.That seriously does not make any sense what-so-ever.

If there was a reason for this, I'd love to hear it, from a Cyan Employee that can speak for this period of development. But, until then, I see no reasons for the lack of content released during the full year that MOUL ran. There could've been a lot more small additions to Uru, things that could've been put together quite easily.

I love how everyone is using Teledahn as an example to discount my posts, but, simple thing is, Teledahn is nothing to do with what I've said. Teledahn probably took quite some time, and cost a decent amount. But, Teledahn existed in Uru:ABM. that's a good 6 or so years ago.

Dhelayan · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:32 pm

My guess is that Minkata, Jalak and the Pods already existed (Negilahn was planned for URU Live, same as the Myst 5 Ages)..so the whole stuff has been there already, only ported to make it compatible with the new engine

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:38 pm

Quote:

Except, the trouble is, they /didn't/ make Teledahn during MOUL.

That's *exactly* my point. When people played Uru what they wanted was big lush ages. Cyan Worlds *also* wanted to create these worlds. And Teledahn shows why they didn't make such worlds in MOUL- not because they didn't care, but because they didn't have the resources.

Heck, they even came in the beginning of MOUL, at the form of Kodama, and told us their resources are low.

Quote:

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I am however saying: "Why wasn't there more?"

Because they could do more. And when they did, it resulted in monthly sparks with no story, no background, and no reason to collect other than get you relto to look like a parade. Not very Myst-like, isn't it?

Quote:

They could've released a lot more of these copy-paste type things.

I'm pretty much sure they couldn't release "a lot more", and even what they could would probably be quite lame. Eder Delin and Eder Tsogal was good because it was barely a copy-paste, the environment and scenery was different. Same with the pods, atleast they had a story reason to copy-paste. These are small ages, and IMO, if storyline doesn't *fit* into them, there shouldn't be any. The problem is that they made tons of it, and no an actual age like people wanted. Minkata was a great place, but still it didn't reach teledahn or er'cana in terms of story, and people want story. Minkata was something like a brief promise for better things.

With the TPOTS stuff it's kinda' obvious it's a copy-paste, they already have the ages as they wanted, what could they change?

Quote:

They should've been released pretty early down the line

While I agree they should have released the TPOTS ages all over the year and not in the very end, I think it was actually quite smart they didn't release it early. Releasing everything in the beginning and than pulling out the small gardens and pods for the rest of the year bore a lot of people, I'm sure.

Quote:

Just like the Myst fans supported Myst4 and Myst5? No

I agree people didn't like Myst5, but hey I so many that did like Myst4, mostly non-Myst fans, which should still be taken into account.[/quote]

EthanEver · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:13 pm

The stranger wrote:

Not very Myst-like, isn't it?

Anything CYAN decides to make part of the MYST canon is Myst-like, even if it were something totally different from what has been seen before. Only CYAN knows precisely what MYST is made of. In a big Myst universe there is room for things that appear to have no explanation.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:23 pm

Quote:

Anything CYAN decides to make part of the MYST canon is Myst-like

And if they added guns to the game, will it be Myst-like? Cyan Worlds have good intentions but the lack of resources drives them to do stuff which doesn't fit in, unMyst stuff. What's unMyst? well the Myst games formed themselves a certain style of things, and if you stray away too much it begins to look cheesy. For example- making your Relto a fireworks parade. Now I don't care for a puzzle containing fireworks. I loved this little touch of modern thing, which you could usually see in Myst. But really, an endless fireworks show at your peaceful relto? try imagining fireworks at Riven when solving a puzzle.

Things can be unMyst by making it too alien (there wasn't one single door you could regulary open in whole of Uru, except for teledahn), or too cheesy (cones, for example, weren't cheesy because they had a background. Relto fireworks show was cheesy).

Karkadann · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:09 pm

Jalak, and Minkata.

In Minkata I noticed some similarities to Myst 5's Laki'aha, the Tusks in one are very similar to the bone cage in the other.

I also remember the pillars in Jalak remind me of the glowing symbol path puzzle of Kadish inside of the Ziggurate

After realizing the new ages where bits a pieces of other ages, I started to wonder where all the Creativity that we have all grown to recognize as Cyan has gone. but that was then this is now. What an artist calls a muse can be difficult enough to find and even more difficult to regain once lost. not to mention most artists are known for being a bit temperamental and the fact that they are still trying to market the artistic talent from within Cyan im surprised things haven't been worse.

Tweek · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 12:11 am **Posts:** 2633

The stranger wrote:

And if they added guns to the game, will it be Myst-like?

Yes.

a. Gehn had his Heek cane in Riven, which was a gun.
b. Veovis and A'gaeris had a armory of guns and swords that they planned to use in their hissy fit with D'ni (BoT)

Violence is part of the D'niverse, it's just people choose to gloss over the fact and pretend it isn't there.
Slavery, murder, genocide....take your pick..

the difference is in the games Cyan aims for a more family friendly feel so they touch "lightly" upon such things, however because they do doesn't mean fans and their Ages will be the same.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:59 pm

I mean the player using guns (and yes I know there was the teledahn gun, but I mean *constantly* using it).

Nalates · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:08 am

Paradox wrote:

Nalates wrote:

May be show us a completed Teledahn like age by the end of the month?

That is a bit of an unfair request.

True, its unfair. My point is creating the Cyan ages is not as simple as kaelisebonrai seems to think and I used an extreme example.

Your idea that 'a decent Age' could be created within less than a week really depends on one’s idea of a decent age.

I think Cyan was going all out in both ’03 and ’07. Their jobs, the company and game depended on it. I also think that the staff is very qualified to build excellent 3D models quickly. We see the staff we know of popping up in other places, doing nice work and as best I can tell they are all talented people.

So, if one believes that, the next logical point comes from the fact that they did not get more ages out. There was more to age building than a quick copy and paste to produce story and age to their standards.

The rapid age building contests show that a quick story and age can be put together quickly. But what percentage of those contest entry ages would fans class as Cyan quality?

Also, when Cyan released Jalak a good number of fans were disappointed. The art work and 3D models were definitely Cyan quality work. But, many of us found Jalak an offering to the RP and game-in-game crowd and to give players something to burn up time. I think that says something about the bar Cyan set and was dealing with. Quick little ages were not likely to cut it.

We have rough ideas of the time and money the overall development of Uru took and cost. Unless one wants to claim Cyan staff were incompetent and wasted all that money and time, then there was more to building Cyan quality ages. We have numbers on several other games too. Most of these games cost into the millions.

Tweek’s points are well taken. Parts of models and textures were reused. Scaling is easy. But, he did not give us any information on age creation time at Cyan.

I disagree on the guns or just anything Cyan tosses in being Myst-Uru like. Anything Cyan does is by definition is Cyan like. But they created a Myst look and play style. The game industry now often refers to that style when talking about other games. Once upon a time some artist (Pissarro, Manet…) created an impressionistic style. Now that has been set in our minds and refers to a limited set of art work that fits that definition. Cyan’s Myst style is set and now well recognized. It is a style without out player violence/aggression.

Tweek is right that we have no assurance that fan made ages will reframe from adding violence. I believe it would be poorly received.

TOOO · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:37 am

Well, considering the avatar/game engine isn't really designed for combat, I think it's rather unlikely.

Somewhere on the 'net, there's an April Fool's joke Cyan did showing combat on Myst Island.

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

Nalates:

its not an "Idea". Its a /fact/. As tweek and myself have both said: Delin and Tsoghal were bits of Kemo taken wholesale. They were then retextured, and the holes in the mesh were closed. A few new details were added, a new puzzle, and *BAM* released.

And, sure, they /didn't/ release more ages quickly, for what reason I have no explaination for, but there is plenty of evidence they were certainly willing to just take an age and retexture it, leaving us with some serious plot-holes.

For one, the Greeter's Guild Pub.

How do you explain that? You have really one option: The DRC descerated an archaelogical site for the use of a modern organisation. The DRC is supposed to be an archaelogical group, who, if they were found to have done this, would most likely loose any further chance they'd have EVER getting any future funding.

EDIT: Lets address some more things in Nalates' post.

Quote:

We have rough ideas of the time and money the overall development of Uru took and cost. Unless one wants to claim Cyan staff were incompetent and wasted all that money and time, then there was more to building Cyan quality ages. We have numbers on several other games too. Most of these games cost into the millions.

Note: those figures reference the previous incarnations of Uru. Which I am yet to mention in my posts. I specifically refer to the content released in MOUL.

Also note: Time spent developing, and money spent producing a game is not always directly proportional to the quality of the game. A particularly notable example of this, is the game "Duke Nukem Forever" -- Duke Nukem Forever was announced on 28th April 1997, and, it was appearantly officially canned on the 6th of May 2009, still unreleased. The best figure I can find for its development costs would be around.. $20 Million US.

Money and time does not necessarily equal quality. And before you say it, these guys were not just Joe Random: They were a famous development studio, that has been around for quite some time.

Nalates · **Posted:** Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:09 pm

I’ll stick with it being an idea of yours that Cyan quality ages are easily and quickly built rather than a fact.

You are avoiding discussing the time it took to develop the ’03 released ages. I can see where you think it is not pertinent to your point. You also avoid addressing the costs that other gaming companies are incurring as they develop virtual worlds and MMO games. Tweek agrees somewhat with you but did not offer information on how long it took to develop an age or what he included in the development effort and presumably that was full time work for a week. In one of his posts he says something about working on a story for 6 years (not a full time effort). And you skipped over what Tweek or anyone might consider a 'decent' age. Then you are baffled at why there were not more Cyan ages.

While it is possible to debate endlessly, I see the entire game industry dealing with content creation and it being a major issue and expense for the industry. You seem puzzled that Cyan did not release more ages because age building/content creation is easy. Your presumption seems to fly in the face of the evidence I see. While my initial question was unfair to make a point I still ask if you are building a Cyan quality age in a time frame that backs up your point?

Obviously my experience is at a novice level of level building. I would not be surprised to find that I’m way slow from inexperience. I started polls and asked the questions of what it takes to learn to build and build an age for use in Uru. There is lots of information there from some of the community’s builders.

MOUL Thread: How Long to LEARN - BUILD Ages Polls
GoMa Poll Learning: How long does it take to learn to build an Age?
GoMa Poll Age Build: How Long Does It Take to BUILD an Age?

These polls are an extremely limited sample of the communities thinking. So, don’t ascribe too much weight to those results. However, I think they suggest a sense of what is required. The MOUL thread touches on many of the communities thoughts on age building and the time required.

kaelisebonrai wrote:

Also note: Time spent developing, and money spent producing a game is not always directly proportional to the quality of the game. A particularly notable example of this, is the game "Duke Nukem Forever" -- Duke Nukem Forever was announced on 28th April 1997, and, it was appearantly officially canned on the 6th of May 2009, still unreleased. The best figure I can find for its development costs would be around.. $20 Million US.

Money and time does not necessarily equal quality. And before you say it, these guys were not just Joe Random: They were a famous development studio, that has been around for quite some time.

So, what is it you think these people were spending the time, money and effort on?

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