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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:13 am 
TOOO wrote:
Zander: please re-read Sharper's journals - and Yeesha's messages in the bahro caves.


They were enslaved, for the same reasons anyone is ever enslaved: cheap labor.


Again, Sharper and Yeesha. There's no mention at any point in BoT of these bahro being used as slaves at the very time of D'ni's Fall, nor does anyone mention them in BoD. "Yahvo, these stones are heavy. I wish we had some bahro here." "Amazing! The way these Terahnee use their relyimah is exactly the way we used our bahro!" Wingrove, of course, may be just as unreliable a narrator as the other two, but that's my point; all we have is unreliable narrators, and taking their accounts as gospel is not sound policy. Since, as far as we know, there's no common language, the bahro would hardly be the ideal choice for cheap labour either--would Africans have been so attractive as slaves if the only way to communicate with them was by drawing pictures?. Any D'ni Writer worth his salt could have Written a better species for the job. And anyway, what's the attraction of cheapness when anything is yours for the expenditure of a little ink?

If Cyan intended to teach us anything with these games, if we are to learn anything from what we make of them, surely it's this: look only at actual evidence, and think about it. Take nothing on trust, and beware of applying surface-human terms to situations that don't necessarily fit.

Rudolfson: I agree there are no actual rules, but rules can be imposed for a lot of reasons, not all of them good.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:02 pm 
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I'm not sure whom I'm addressing here, but the bahro in the book and the bahro in the game are not the same.
The Ahrotantee are human, the bahro we know and love definitely aren't.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:23 pm 
Exactly. That's why I said "these bahro."


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:57 pm 
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I feel that if in open source anything in the storyline or main gameplay was to be changed then a bit of the magic of the game would shrink a bit as well.


That's why you have opinions. I feel that changing stuff in the story would make "the magic of the game" bigger. I'll open a server and people who think like me may join. In the meantime you find a server which keeps the Cyan Worlds story, and you enjoy it there.

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The Ahrotantee are human


More correctly human-like. The bahros we know, considering they got glyphs language and all that, I could call them ahrotahntee.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:43 am 
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Once upon a time, there was a reverence to the Myst/D'ni canon. Then MOUL happened, and everyone apparently threw up their hands and gave up, proclaiming that they could do a story better than Cyan ever could, totally ignoring that all of that really good stuff the came prior to MOUL totally mucking things up.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:26 am 
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In my mind, I imagine Myst + Riven + OldCyanWebsiteInfo + BoA + BoT to be canon, and everything else to be like the Star Wars prequels. (That's not to say "bad", but just... not the same at all. E.g. I loved Myst3.)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:04 pm 
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vidkid7 wrote:
Once upon a time, there was a reverence to the Myst/D'ni canon. Then MOUL happened, and everyone apparently threw up their hands and gave up, proclaiming that they could do a story better than Cyan ever could, totally ignoring that all of that really good stuff the came prior to MOUL totally mucking things up.


Uh, I think you'll find most of those people are doing the complete opposite of ignoring the earlier stuff; they'll be purists who only like the original storylines.

I think ultimately people here are arguing over nothing. The great thing about an open source project is that different people will end up doing their own thing with it. Some people will want to simply recreate what we had before, some people will want to tweak and modify the story/setting or add their own things (think fanfiction), some people will go off in an entirely different direction with the engine.

This is of course assuming that it will be truly open sourced.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:37 pm 
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In my mind, I imagine Myst + Riven + OldCyanWebsiteInfo + BoA + BoT to be canon, and everything else to be like the Star Wars prequels. (That's not to say "bad", but just... not the same at all. E.g. I loved Myst3.)


It's kinda' strange to hear it. It's not new- several people say it (luckily many do like Myst 3 and 4). I personally really liked Myst III Exile and Myst IV Revelation, they felt really Myst-like. Yet this is a question of what Myst-like is for you. I can understand people kicking Uru out of "their" canon- it broke many rules and everything. But Myst 3 and 4... they weren't so bad, really. So okay, serenia was strange- you should have seen it coming, she's not Atrus and we have been told again and again in Riven and the books that her ages were strange and different. So,okay, the Myst 3 sometimes felt like a maze, with a straight line of puzzles- but it made sense in the story, and beside- the puzzles were fun.

The only game which I do "kick out" is Myst V. It wasn't really Myst-like, for many reasons. It had it's good points- todelmer, noloban... but it has many down points, like the over-use of "magic" which was already observed as something most people don't like.

Uru stand near the edge- it does use "magic" which I don't really like, but it had fun puzzles and great atmosphere.

As for Myst the Book of D'ni: well I didn't read it yet, only a small part it it seems quite good.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:34 am 
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The stranger wrote:
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The Ahrotantee are human


More correctly human-like. The bahros we know, considering they got glyphs language and all that, I could call them ahrotahntee.
You haven't read BoT.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:02 am 
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You haven't read BoT.


Actually I did. Ahrotahntee is everything which isn't D'ni, and is somewhat more than an animal. It can be humans like us (and Anna), serenians (which very much resemble humans), the monkey-like civilization of Channlewood, the bahros from "the Book of D'ni" (in whatever way they were described...), and also the regular "magic bahros" we know (if you look at what they have- language, non-animal houses).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:42 am 
tahgayrahl wrote:
vidkid7 wrote:
Once upon a time, there was a reverence to the Myst/D'ni canon. Then MOUL happened, and everyone apparently threw up their hands and gave up, proclaiming that they could do a story better than Cyan ever could, totally ignoring that all of that really good stuff the came prior to MOUL totally mucking things up.


Uh, I think you'll find most of those people are doing the complete opposite of ignoring the earlier stuff; they'll be purists who only like the original storylines.

I think ultimately people here are arguing over nothing. The great thing about an open source project is that different people will end up doing their own thing with it. Some people will want to simply recreate what we had before, some people will want to tweak and modify the story/setting or add their own things (think fanfiction), some people will go off in an entirely different direction with the engine.

This is of course assuming that it will be truly open sourced.


Well, apart from the bahro argument which is old business, what I'm saying is that there is an important lesson to be drawn from what I see as Cyan's mishandling of that storyline, and it's applicable to whatever stories you try to tell in open source Uru, or indeed anywhere else. Whether canon or complete invention, keep your facts and your hearsay separate in your own mind, and make sure that your players can, with sufficient percipience and thought, discover the distinction for themselves.


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