It is currently Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:56 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:57 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 6:23 pm
Posts: 4589
Location: Dutch mountains
Because we were drifting away from the original topic I have split these posts and gave them their own topic in Open Source Myst Online - General Discussion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:16 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Montana
ddb174 wrote:
Yeah, amongst the open-source libraries they use are Boost (including Boost Python), and OpenSSL. (Even though these are open-source, Cyan has actually performed copyright infringement with respect to OpenSSL with MOUL :P)

Maybe. The manual for Myst Online: URU Live contained the openSSL copyright information. It wasn't plastered over everything related to MOUL, but it was definitely covered.

_________________
Through space and time; along the threads of the stars; we seek the knowledge and wisdom of the ages.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:20 pm
Posts: 303
I was thinking that smk still had to be kept in, for compatibility with the original Cyan content. If we switch to h.264 exclusively, we then won't be able to use the animations in the existing prime content.

_________________
Avatar: Anaerin
Ki: 118686


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:33 am
Posts: 1182
Location: British Columbia, Canada
ddb174 wrote:
(Avatar customisation is a painful thing that apparently needs to be partially replaced, though considering how bad it is in Uru, I don't know why they had to use a 3rd party library to begin with. I guess just getting it done and out the door.)


I believe this idea stems back to the "3D Me Now" program (not 3rd party code) that was originally used to create some of the avatars such as Rand Miller, the non-customizable avatars from early Choru, and possibly the DRC Folk.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that the current avatar system includes any 3rd party code, but please prove me wrong if I'm missing something. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:53 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 902
Teedyo wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
Yeah, amongst the open-source libraries they use are Boost (including Boost Python), and OpenSSL. (Even though these are open-source, Cyan has actually performed copyright infringement with respect to OpenSSL with MOUL :P)

Maybe. The manual for Myst Online: URU Live contained the openSSL copyright information. It wasn't plastered over everything related to MOUL, but it was definitely covered.


I don't know the license of OpenSSL, but just putting the copyright information out there, does not mean it didn't break the license in question, thus, copyright infringement.

I don't know enough about the openssl license to comment, though.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:27 pm
Posts: 167
Paradox wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
(Avatar customisation is a painful thing that apparently needs to be partially replaced, though considering how bad it is in Uru, I don't know why they had to use a 3rd party library to begin with. I guess just getting it done and out the door.)


I believe this idea stems back to the "3D Me Now" program (not 3rd party code) that was originally used to create some of the avatars such as Rand Miller, the non-customizable avatars from early Choru, and possibly the DRC Folk.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that the current avatar system includes any 3rd party code, but please prove me wrong if I'm missing something. :)

That could certainly could be, I was just guessing based on what Cyan has said (hence the 'apparently'). Normally one wouldn't expect a program used to generate other content to try to place restrictions on how that content can be used. (E.g. photoshop places no restrictions on what you can do with the content you create with it.), but there are some wacky programs out there :P It would be interesting to hear from Cyan just what the licensing problem regarding avatars is.

About the MOUL thing: I just re-checked the documents that came with it, and no, it doesn't appear to be there. "Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution." Somewhere on the company's website at some point in time doesn't cut it; this was copyright infringement on Cyan's part.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:16 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Montana
kaelisebonrai wrote:
Teedyo wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
Yeah, amongst the open-source libraries they use are Boost (including Boost Python), and OpenSSL. (Even though these are open-source, Cyan has actually performed copyright infringement with respect to OpenSSL with MOUL :P)

Maybe. The manual for Myst Online: URU Live contained the openSSL copyright information. It wasn't plastered over everything related to MOUL, but it was definitely covered.


I don't know the license of OpenSSL, but just putting the copyright information out there, does not mean it didn't break the license in question, thus, copyright infringement.

I don't know enough about the openssl license to comment, though.

http://www.openssl.org/source/license.html
It only requires acknowledgment; much like the BSD, Apache, etc.. The only reason I agreed to a 'maybe' is because I think the manual was only available on-line and not distributed with the software.

_________________
Through space and time; along the threads of the stars; we seek the knowledge and wisdom of the ages.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:20 pm
Posts: 303
Teedyo wrote:
kaelisebonrai wrote:
Teedyo wrote:
ddb174 wrote:
Yeah, amongst the open-source libraries they use are Boost (including Boost Python), and OpenSSL. (Even though these are open-source, Cyan has actually performed copyright infringement with respect to OpenSSL with MOUL :P)

Maybe. The manual for Myst Online: URU Live contained the openSSL copyright information. It wasn't plastered over everything related to MOUL, but it was definitely covered.


I don't know the license of OpenSSL, but just putting the copyright information out there, does not mean it didn't break the license in question, thus, copyright infringement.

I don't know enough about the openssl license to comment, though.

http://www.openssl.org/source/license.html
It only requires acknowledgment; much like the BSD, Apache, etc.. The only reason I agreed to a 'maybe' is because I think the manual was only available on-line and not distributed with the software.

And if it only requires "Acknowledgement", then the "This game contains some code from the OpenSSL project" (Or something vaguely similar) that is in the "Credits" is acceptable under the terms of the license.

_________________
Avatar: Anaerin
Ki: 118686


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:33 am
Posts: 1182
Location: British Columbia, Canada
The BSD-Style license for OpenSSL clearly states that the entire copyright notice must be reproduced.

Code:
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
 *    the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
 *    distribution.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:20 pm
Posts: 303
Paradox wrote:
The BSD-Style license for OpenSSL clearly states that the entire copyright notice must be reproduced.

Code:
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
 *    the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
 *    distribution.

The Uru Complete Chronicles README file, section IV. (LICENSE TO USE THE MULTIMEDIA PRODUCT) wrote:
(Inside "6-Open Source Licenses")
OpenSSL
Copyright © 1998-2002 The OpenSSL Project. All rights reserved.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
  1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
  2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
  3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgment:
    "This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit. (http://www.openssl.org/)"
  4. The names "OpenSSL Toolkit" and "OpenSSL Project" must not be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without prior written permission. For written permission, please contact
    [email protected].
  5. Products derived from this software may not be called "OpenSSL" nor may "OpenSSL" appear in their names without prior written permission of the OpenSSL Project.
  6. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following acknowledgment:
    "This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit (http://www.openssl.org/)"
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE OpenSSL PROJECT "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE OpenSSL PROJECT OR ITS CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
This product includes software written by Tim * Hudson ([email protected]).

Original SSLeay License
Copyright © 1995-1998 Eric Young ([email protected])
All rights reserved.
This package is an SSL implementation written by Eric Young ([email protected]).
The implementation was written so as to conform with Netscape's SSL.
This library is free for commercial and non-commercial use as long as the following conditions are adhered to. The following conditions apply to all code found in this distribution, be it the RC4, RSA, lhash, DES, etc., code; not just the SSL code. The SSL documentation included with this distribution is covered by the same copyright terms except that the holder is Tim Hudson ([email protected]).
Copyright remains Eric Young's, and as such any Copyright notices in the code are not to be removed. If this package is used in a product, Eric Young should be given attribution as the author of the parts of the library used. This can be in the form of a textual message at program startup or in documentation (online or textual) provided with the package.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
  1. Redistributions of source code must retain the copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
  2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
  3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement:
    "This product includes cryptographic software written by Eric Young ([email protected])"
  4. If you include any Windows specific code (or a derivative thereof) from the apps directory (application code) you must include an acknowledgement:
    "This product includes software written by Tim Hudson ([email protected])"
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY ERIC YOUNG "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
The license and distribution terms for any publicly available version or derivative of this code cannot be changed. i.e. this code cannot simply be copied and put under another distribution license * [including the GNU Public License.]

License met.

Now, shall we move on? :)

_________________
Avatar: Anaerin
Ki: 118686


Last edited by Anaerin on Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1814
Location: California
Whilyam wrote:
The news that I have seen is that some plug-ins in the code are not able to be licensed to us because other employees had created them, thus owning them.

Whilyam touches on a point I don’t think we have information on. An employee usually does not have rights to work done as an employee. When work is done for pay it is usually a “Work for Hire” and all rights are owned by the employer unless there is an agreement otherwise. Xerox and other companies have allowed employees to have rights to things they developed as parts of their compensation package. But, I don’t think I have ever heard where any Cyan employee said Cyan allowed an employee’s work for Cyan to be owned by the employee.

Paradox wrote:
The main backend library "Plasma" which contains 3rd party code…

I haven’t heard Plasma referred to as a library. If all the physics happens on the client then is this a library only for the client software?

ddb174 wrote:
Yeah, amongst the open-source libraries they use are Boost (including Boost Python), and OpenSSL. (Even though these are open-source, Cyan has actually performed copyright infringement with respect to OpenSSL with MOUL :P)

I’m curious how you know this is true? Even OpenSSL.org refers people off to attorneys and other patent holders. Would one not have to have knowledge of what agreements were made with all of those people to know whether there was a violation?

ddb174 wrote:
About the MOUL thing: I just re-checked the documents that came with it, and no, it doesn't appear to be there.

All of my MOUL was online via GT. I still have a copy of the TGN ToS that I saved. Other than that what is it you are looking at now?

Are you saying the notifications are not also in the binary files or distributed as readme files with the distribution we downloaded (Which would be Paradox’s point?)?

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:33 am
Posts: 1182
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Ah, I suppose the README file does indeed count as including the license text... I as thinking solely of the in-game credits book.

@Nalates: The Plasma library is not a program of its own, but is used in all three of the other components (Client, Server, and Plugin).
The parts for reading content (PRP) files, physics, and rendering aren't used by the server, but the Plasma library includes things like the SDL Manager which is used by the server to read, write, and create Vault states.
The Plugin does almost the opposite of the client, taking 3D data from Max and creating the content (PRP) files for Plasma.

It might be incorrect of me to actually label it a library (which often implies a separate .dll file), but the Client, Server, and Plugin are definitely all using the same files and classes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:27 pm
Posts: 167
That readme file is from Pots/CC and *not* MOUL, which I specifically said was the game that violated it. (MOUL could be installed two ways: through Gametap and through a standalone installer from this website. I think I used the standalone installer, but it doesn't matter, as it resulted in the same files, which I have all of, and none of them contain the required copyright notice.) OpenSSL isn't some company that licenses out code via specific deals, since you can already do pretty much anything you want with it, including close-sourcing it. (Indeed, they cannot even legally do so unless they have secured such a right from each contributor, something that GNU often does, but OpenSSL does not.)

Some people have put a lot of work into it, and about all they ask for is to be given credit alongside the software it is used in, but Cyan has not even done that, and since that was a part of the license, have violated the authors' copyright. This is not some BS EULA: without the license, nothing gives Cyan the legal ability to use that code.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:20 pm
Posts: 303
ddb174 wrote:
That readme file is from Pots/CC and *not* MOUL, which I specifically said was the game that violated it. (MOUL could be installed two ways: through Gametap and through a standalone installer from this website. I think I used the standalone installer, but it doesn't matter, as it resulted in the same files, which I have all of, and none of them contain the required copyright notice.) OpenSSL isn't some company that licenses out code via specific deals, since you can already do pretty much anything you want with it, including close-sourcing it. (Indeed, they cannot even legally do so unless they have secured such a right from each contributor, something that GNU often does, but OpenSSL does not.)

Some people have put a lot of work into it, and about all they ask for is to be given credit alongside the software it is used in, but Cyan has not even done that, and since that was a part of the license, have violated the authors' copyright. This is not some BS EULA: without the license, nothing gives Cyan the legal ability to use that code.

As I recall, when you started MOUL, did it not prompt you with a license agreement and/or ToS document to agree to? Did not that agreement have the third-party licensing agreements (Speex, Ogg Vorbis, OpenSSL, SSLeay) contained within?

_________________
Avatar: Anaerin
Ki: 118686


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:27 pm
Posts: 167
That wouldn't be sufficient even if it did. (That's not what the license asks for. Case in point: a ton of people now have this software which is a derivative of OpenSSL with no way of telling that without looking at strings in the binary or some such thing.) And the ToS file that came with it doesn't contain the third-party licensing agreements.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: