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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
I had not thought of Cyan putting up an open simulator server, as Tai’lahr suggests. I like the idea but I have my doubts Cyan would be interested
Me either, which is why I called it a "fantasy."

Nalates wrote:
Anything that is placed in those servers has a high probability of becoming public domain and spread across the net. That is a major point of contention in the SL/OS grid worlds and the primary hold up on grid-to-grid travel and ecommerce.
Can't this be prevented by making the textures "no perm?" In any case, their textures are already being hacked and spread across the net. My suggestion is meant to generate some income from something that's already happening.

Nalates wrote:
If Cyan were to open an SL region with LL
No, I don't want Cyan to go to SL; it's a money pit. I want them to get us out of SL and divert our spending from Linden to Cyan.

Nalates wrote:
So, while I believe a mix in building styles is coming soon, it is going to be alpha and beta level. Cyan has never seemed open to much of anything short of perfection… well salt that… but you get my meaning. Toward the end of this year we may see Myst-Uru sims with mixed building environments. I think it has great potential for both the Blender and SL-type-tools builders working together.
Sounds like the wild west. For some, it's an exciting thought to be one of the pioneers; for others, just plain scary.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:27 pm 
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I can't comment on the technical aspects of this proposal -- you all can tell me, would it be as easy to start making stuff with this proposal as it is in Second Life? Would as many people get into it -- would there be events, could I find Uru people? Would it be easy to get a new look, new animations such as dances, new vehicles, that sort of thing? I think so -- I think the proposal is to have some of what I consider the goodness of SL, without it being SL.

Here's something I was thinking about -- chatted about it briefly with a couple of Uru people when I was in Second Life.

When Uru had new ages, and gameplay, things to do, that was good! But, if you wanted to have an event, you could not do anything new, could not change anything. Even if you had something simple like a concert where people danced, it was all the same, always. And the landscape never changed. The events in SL work better because people can change stuff. The announcements are better too -- I get whole big attachments of things, the friends list works well, and people can send me a link so I can always get to the event.

Making stuff in a virtual world is interesting. There are purists out there, people who "make an age from scratch", work and work on it. That's one way to do it. Then, there are the people who got in SL, started modifying things, and then making things. As far as I can tell, first some folks worked on their appearance, hair (really big in SL), clothes, stuff. Some may think that's shallow but I think that's a swell feature of SL, you can endlessly remake and tweak your appearance. I like that feature of SL, though now that I have a look I like, with wings, I rarely change my look. Then there's the animations in SL, dances, walks, swinging on swings. sitting in the lotus position for meditations, all that. After making small personal things, you then get people moving on to make bigger stuff, new ages. Now maybe some people started with the big stuff, but I suspect there were a fair number of people who started with small personal things, attended the "make stuff" classes, and kept going. From my outsider perspective that's how it seems to work. I don't make stuff in SL, but even I'm tempted.

There seems to be some people who happily move between both worlds, the "make an age from scratch" and the Sl stuff, but there also seems to be something going on where some of the "purist" age creators look down on the SL people who make stuff -- it's not pretty enough, it's not good enough, it's too shallow, you interact with people who aren't into Uru, all that. I think that some of this has to do with the look of SL (not good enough, though all graphics in all games are compromises), and some of it has to do with what people do in SL -- the little stuff, the social stuff.

What makes SL great for me is that the Uru community is so active, social and creative, and they branched out into things like Burning Life in SL. I don't want to lose that. Some kinds of things just work better in Second Life than they ever did in Uru, the parties, the music festivals, other events. I'm guessing here, but (sorry There folks) it seems to me that the largest active community of people who still identify as Uru people and have Uru themed events is in Second Life. If your proposal preserves what I consider the SL goodness - that would be great. But - maybe you can get people to move to a new virtual world (Tailahr's proposal), maybe not.

Another thing I noticed, and I'm a bit hesitant to bring this up - the gender thing. For Uru folks who identify as female in the virtual world (unless I know for sure, I try not to assume from people's avatars, though, being human, I often do) -- you see many of them in Second Life, attending events, making stuff, having fun. I wonder, how many wormen are making ages from scratch (the blender thing), incorporating them into single player Uru via Drizzle, all that. This is curious to me.

I could make a similar comparison about CyanChat (not super welcoming to new people) and the SL Uru community - very welcoming) but that's for a different posts.

I don't have any big "just do it" conclusions, just some interesting observations. People move to a world where they feel comfortable, with interesting people, things to do, where they try new things and where -- it just works. Something to think about if you want to encourage migration to a new world.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:24 pm 
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mszv wrote:
I wonder, how many wormen are making ages from scratch (the blender thing), incorporating them into single player Uru via Drizzle, all that. This is curious to me.

On the question of female age writers, I know Kierra has written a few. I have not kept up with the age building scene, so there may be more at this time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Corvus and ametist have also written ages.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:42 am 
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mszv wrote:
I wonder, how many wormen are making ages from scratch (the blender thing), incorporating them into single player Uru via Drizzle, all that. This is curious to me.


Apparently someone has not visited ChloesHoodOffice yet! I am appalled at this and personally offended, not as a female but as a human being. (Just kidding of course) :twisted:

But not only have I developed my own ages, but in the time since MOUL shut down i am also one of those nasty little hackers that have helped to develop PyPRP. On this forum I simply go by the avatar name I had in MOUL. But in the other Uru forums I've gone by GPNMilano. In GoW GPNMilano In GoMA GoMA

I know this caused confusion for a few of my friends who didn't realize that I wasn't under the same username on all the forums. But here, at the DRC site, and at UruObsession I chose a name that the IC community of Uru would be more familiar with than those who I speak to on a daily basis.

So in short: ChloeRhodes = GPNMilano and yes I have built a few ages with many more on the way.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:46 am 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
So in short: ChloeRhodes = GPNMilano and yes I have built a few very close to Cyan quality ages with many more on the way.


Fixed, and looking forward to seeing many more of those Ages. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:01 am 
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Paradox wrote:
ChloeRhodes wrote:
So in short: ChloeRhodes = GPNMilano and yes I have built a few very close to Cyan quality ages with many more on the way.


Fixed, and looking forward to seeing many more of those Ages. :)


Awww.... :oops:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:46 am 
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mszv, all the 'things' in SL are becoming available in the OS grids. Things we have made in SL and have full perm rights to can be moved to the OS grids. Actually with some work, anything in SL can be moved to OS grid, not legal but is possible. As I said that has created lots of problems.

Dot and Paislee are having some script transfer problems. Also some of the prim attributes don't' transfer. I guess 'sit-positions' are a problem. But OS grid is still alpha.

Tai'lahr, the restricted perms on stuff doesn't stop the guys running the sims. A sim operator on the OS grid has full god mode powers. If it is in the sim, they own it. Which in my private sim is kinda cool. I can backup all my stuff.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Tai'lahr, the restricted perms on stuff doesn't stop the guys running the sims. A sim operator on the OS grid has full god mode powers. If it is in the sim, they own it.

But, I'm suggesting a sim owned by Cyan (or a trusted licensed agent) and their textures provided for use within that sim. Is it possible for them to prevent exportation of those textures if they leave off the permissions?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:45 pm 
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All such interesting comments, interesting to me to think about. And even better, all of you making ages! Sorry, I haven't visited anyone's ages - haven't done the Drizzle thing, haven't gotten to it yet.

I'm not wedded to Second Life, I just like some things about it, a whole lot, and what the good parts to continue.

One of the things SL has, something that's also interesting -- is a group of Uru fans, a mass, not a huge, huge number, but enough people that there is a community, rather a group of communities since I know the SL Uru people aren't all one undifferentiated community blob! I get announcements for stuff, all the time, the one I remember right no, the "Dni Voice" - is awesome! Just for me, sefishly, I want all that good stuff to continue.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:29 am 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
Nalates wrote:
Tai'lahr, the restricted perms on stuff doesn't stop the guys running the sims. A sim operator on the OS grid has full god mode powers. If it is in the sim, they own it.

But, I'm suggesting a sim owned by Cyan (or a trusted licensed agent) and their textures provided for use within that sim. Is it possible for them to prevent exportation of those textures if they leave off the permissions?


They can protect the stuff somewhat. Without going technical on you, anything you can see in a SL/OS viewer can be copied.

To figure out how much effort I needed to put into protecting the things I make in SL I tried the various copy processes. It takes a couple of hours to learn to copy stuff... any stuff... no mater the permissions. This is an issue for all the merchants/manufacturers in SL. In general they are giving up preventing copying things. It just is not possible. It's like a book in a library. Check it out, walk to Kinko's on free copy day and make yourself a copy. Copyright law is not about preventing people from copying things, its about knowing who has a right to copy an item and make money from it. SL/OS grid people are working out how to know who has rights to what and to enforce those rights... or at least give the owner the tools to enforce their rights. Until that exists, I don't see Cyan allowing their stuff on the grids. I do hope for some freedom in how we relate to the story.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Interesting post there, Nalates.
JWPlatt wrote:
I suggested they pull the code they can't release and let the open source community handle writing the new code. It seemed to resonate with a solid consensus.

Yeah, a number of us also probably came to that conclusion independently (don't recall if I saw your post, not sure), it just makes sense. It's easy enough to call for it without having to actually develop the code, sure...but with all the time that's been peed away I'm sure a lot more could have been coded up.

One word of warning, though (and possibly a reason why Cyan hasn't been willing to do this, stemming from the obvious "Cyan released junk rargh" outbursts): Whoever would be developing stuff might need to do it close to full-time, and it may be expensive. But I'd rather chip into something like that if the only alternative (of course it's not, but it's the only one that seems to be seriously considered) is wait forever while Uru's engine becomes yet less relevant. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Tai'lahr wrote:
Nalates wrote:
Tai'lahr, the restricted perms on stuff doesn't stop the guys running the sims. A sim operator on the OS grid has full god mode powers. If it is in the sim, they own it.

But, I'm suggesting a sim owned by Cyan (or a trusted licensed agent) and their textures provided for use within that sim. Is it possible for them to prevent exportation of those textures if they leave off the permissions?


They can protect the stuff somewhat. Without going technical on you, anything you can see in a SL/OS viewer can be copied.

To figure out how much effort I needed to put into protecting the things I make in SL I tried the various copy processes. It takes a couple of hours to learn to copy stuff... any stuff... no mater the permissions.

Okay, but the same is true for Uru already. Once you have the game, you can extract the textures. It's been done time and time again and those textures are now out there, everywhere, including Second Life. And, Cyan's not seeing a penny from it. My suggestion is to provide a legitimate way for fans to have access to the textures for building and charge them for the space like SL and other grids do.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:31 pm 
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I think you are missing the point of what Nalates is saying: Second Life is (according to the post) working on ways to determine who has rights to use whatever protected intellectual property. Your attitude that since it's out there they ought to cave is not how people manage their IP...imagine if people went into courts saying "well, their brand is out there and anybody could use it, so I decided to use it to advertise my (insert terrible thing here)." Likewise they have a right to keep Uru's stuff unique. If people are stealing it for use on SL that isn't any inducement for them to try facilitating it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:33 pm 
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On the other hand there are powerful brands out there - such as Star Trek - that permit use of the IP for private and public enjoyment so long as no one is paid for it. Use of Star Trek IP is extensive with a number of professional-level fan video productions supported by people actually involved with the franchise, including star and production talent. It is a friendly and encouraging approach to the fanbase that supports the franchise.

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