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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:28 am 
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Lost Uru Fans & Fan Divisions

This is easily a thread topic where loyalties, opinions and emotions will run deep.
My purpose in starting this thread topic is to get a public indication for my own understanding and maybe more clarity for others of where OSU (Open Source Uru) fans are and stand today.

My Disclaimer: Let me just say up front first, that my statements and opinions are based upon my own ideas and understandings to what I have come away with from other fan postings in the forums and my own understandings and interpretations of them. There has been a tremendous amount of topic threads and information over the years that I have read and come across that has influenced my opinions and understandings. However, for those who may ask where I get my ideas and understandings from and that I state or post reference links and quotes, that’s not going to happen. Please feel free to disagree with me and post your own links, quotes and references to support your opinions, either for or against. Let’s all try to keep this thread about what we know and believe and work towards it not being turned into a personal debate and crusade between a few posting individuals looking to persuade those who might read this threat to their way of thinking. Please allow others to post opposing views with out attacking them or driving them off.

I’ll start by throwing out what I know and have heard and introduce the general topics I believe are relevant to this thread’s topic.
Fan Divisions: In this sense I’m speaking about the explorers, guilds and the existing web sites formed and based around the MO:UL game “MOUL introduced Guilds” and the explorers that run them and those members that belong to them.

Guild Beginnings: Briefly, my understanding was that the initial efforts by those that set up a Guild and tried to establish stated purposes and a governing structure met with inner struggles and debate to find purpose and those that would be in charge. During the course of these guilds early beginnings, they met with a lot of community explorer criticism that developed into several thread topics. One thread was to establish a Master Guild to be organize from the existing MO:UL Guilds heads with which a more unified to roles and agenda would be established for all the guilds and a place where the Uru community of explorers have a platform with which to be heard and to player role in the direction Open Source Uru might take in the future. Part of Uru community explorer criticism was based around the existing guilds having a better and more unified define purposes and working relationships with which the overall Uru community of explorers might be better utilized as a resource. This topic became a hotly and sorely debated thread that from what I could tell from, much of the Explorer fan base was negatively affected. Some perceived the individual guilds reluctance and inability to form a more cohesive and overall Guild structure to a defined purpose for the Uru community of explorers being about the ego’s and power struggles of those within each individual Guild.

Failure to communicate & to long to wait: Some perceive a Cyan/Rand failure in a lack of communication with and to the fan base, their not having been forthcoming enough in their announcements with fans on several fronts coupled with what many fans see the time passed as excessive and it alone has caused much of the fans enthusiasm, loyalty and desire to return to OSU (Open Source Uru) to fade. I have heard many of the fans expressed that they will not return to OSU.

Where did they go to: Other fans have become immersed in other games and/or places like SL & There sites. Again I have heard these Uru fans express they will not return, with others saying they would on a limited basis.

For myself, I have to wonder what Cyan has been up to all this time working to get OSU up and running again. My guess would be they are working out some beta model to get as much of the code and the game workable before releasing it as OSU to us.

My conclusion; If they release OSU, they will come . . . return When it comes to Uru as a multi-player game and it being released to open source, the only thing that really matters is that it becomes a publicly available reality to play again. I honestly believe regardless to what the guilds are doing and are about now and/or how many Uru fans return or not, it seems clear that there is still a very active core group of Uru fans that have demonstrated enough resolve and capability to successfully help grow this open source game into a successful reality. I suspect over time that most, if not all, true Uru fans will find their way back home to Open Source Uru (OSU). I believe the Open Source Uru platform for fan created art license (FCAL) game content has too much potential for success to fail.


Last edited by Jahmen on Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Jahmen, your summary is probably how many fans see the community. Of course the actual history is more complex and shaded by personalities and conflicting ideas of what can be done with Uru and what should be done with Uru. In general your perception is accurate but leaves out lots of detail. However, none of the history I could add would lead you, or anyone, to a different conclusion, which I see as realistic. How you came to it is less important than where you see things going.

For many the flame wars within the forums over guilds and what people thought they were doing and would do, lots of personality, drama, and passion are just noise. I wrote my perception and experience with guilds in April 2009. (The Guilds of Myst-Uru Part I) The writing is my opinion, not the gospel of events. The DPWR.net – Guild of Archivers (which is down today) has a history of the GoC up to the Aiden era and is similar to how other guilds formed.

Most people skip talking about why the Guild, Shard and other flames wars started as most of the points have never been settled for many of those involved. They have never been able to come to a consensus of how to resolve their differences, which is why Standards for Discussion and Debate got started.

Your perception that many of those in SL, THERE, GW, and etc. will not come back is correct but incomplete. The community and its various divisions and groups are not homogeneous. It’s true; there are some that have decided they are not coming back. Another group, hard to size, says they will leave their current homes and return to MOOU (Myst Online Open Uru). Another and larger group plans to visit MOOU but keep their current virtual homes. Because of the growing number of Uru fans building Myst-Uru style places in odd environments and planning to live in multiple virtual worlds OpenUru.org is planning a section for Uru fans in various virtual worlds. (Thinking about infrastructure)

…and many of us wonder what Cyan is doing with open source that is taking so long. So, we speculate and suggest things we think will make it happen faster. /me points to Rip & Release/License Now sign.

Your right that it does not matter what the guilds do. I tend to think of the guilds as just other people. The guilds have no power. Their forums and wiki’s could be replaced by anyone. When open source comes out any number of people could create branches and tools for working with Myst-Uru ages. Thinking that the 'guilds' are some unified group that is well connected or run by Cyan is not realistic. Because there is so much misunderstanding about guilds OpenUru.org decided to avoid the use of the 'guild' concept in the hope it could appeal to those that had problems with guilds.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:46 pm 
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More to the point, OpenUru.org is not anti-Guild, but positioned as a real-world (Out-Of-Character/Cavern, or OOC) Uru project site without the IC (In-Character/Cavern) trappings and confusion new people experience upon entering the community. And we're all hoping for lots of new people. Open source is a real-world thing and so there's little point to the pretense of surrounding it with a fictional structure. Besides, all the good guild names are taken. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:10 am 
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So far and in my mind, there a group of dedicated fans that
stands out... way, way above all other groups (official guilds) and
it is the old "Alcugs gang".

Big hat salute to them all.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:52 pm 
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There are core groups (not one group) of Uru fans -- people who come together to play Uru and/or create new worlds. When people come together in a group, sometimes they give themselves a name. Sometimes the group has a guildy sort of name, sometimes it's just a name. There are also people who don't affiliate with any of the groups, mostly, but they played Uru and might make it onto an open source server, one day.

I think that any of the issues with guilds in the past -- official or "sort of official" guilds -- it had to do with Cyan. If Cyan wanted official guilds, then they needed to manage them and manage the process. Cyan didn't manage the process and there were problems. That's, as they say, "water under the bridge". We're still waiting for Cyan to get moving on open source Uru -- I can't see them jumping back in to manage guilds.

There are no official groups. People can do what they want. Given how we are now -- I think that's good. Even with a guildy sort of name, I don't see why we can't have more than one "Guild of Maintainers", depending on what the participants want. You might want to stick something at the end of a common name -- I don't know - "Guild of Maintainers Uru Memories", something like that, something to make it unique, so it's clear what group people are referring to.

On people playing an MMO version of Uru again, a legal one -- we'll see how many people find a server, assuming we get them. I don't think of it as an exclusive thing either -- you might see people stay in their current worlds and also get into MMO Uru somewhere! Given that time travel doesn't exist, it's not as if we can all suddenly go back to 2003.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Artic_Wagon Wrote:

Quote:
So far and in my mind, there a group of dedicated fans that
stands out... way, way above all other groups (official guilds) and
it is the old "Alcugs gang".


Artic, your Reference “Alcugs gang” ? For those explorers who come here and find this thread, most will not likely understand your Alcugs reference, unless you provide use with more about the who, how and what they are, is about and have done. Could you add some more information to better introduce and explain Alcugs please.

NOTE: Let us pretend that some who stumble across our threads and posts are new explorers looking to learn.
I ask those who post in this thread and use acronyms to please provide in quotes at least once what it is or means for those who are less knowledgeable. :D

mszv Wrote:
Quote:
There are core groups (not one group) of Uru fans -- people who come together to play Uru and/or create new worlds.

True, yet the Alcugs gang reference post acknowledges a personal believed that they stand out above the rest to him and does include the acknowledgment of other groups contributing.

Quote:
I think that any of the issues with guilds in the past -- official or "sort of official" guilds -- it had to do with Cyan. If Cyan wanted official guilds, then they needed to manage them and manage the process. Cyan didn't manage the process and there were problems. That's, as they say, "water under the bridge". We're still waiting for Cyan to get moving on open source Uru -- I can't see them jumping back in to manage guilds.


Manage the guilds ... hmm Didn't Cyan introduced each of the 5 Guilds in MOUL with their own shirts, meeting places and a brief intro-game statement letter? Manage them or not, they might have had something in mind and we can only speculate as to what their original thinking was and might still be. :idea: How about instead of manage the guilds, Cyan had a less hands on approach to setting some loose basic guidelines to structure and purpose with which the guilds could function together in general purpose. My guess is that Cyan must have had some basic idea in mind when they introduced them into MOUL and for all we know may still have an agenda for them. If the guilds are to play any role in Open Source Uru then what that role and purpose is would be best served if Cyan made known what they had in mind.

Quote:
There are no official groups. People can do what they want. Given how we are now -- I think that's good. Even with a guildy sort of name, I don't see why we can't have more than one "Guild of Maintainers", depending on what the participants want. You might want to stick something at the end of a common name -- I don't know - "Guild of Maintainers Uru Memories", something like that, something to make it unique, so it's clear what group people are referring to.


I see no reasons for not having any number of Guilds the same name or by what ever names and purposes, but all this suggests to me the following;
The first, is that Guilds by any name or intended purpose will be either “Officially” Cyan sanctioned and those that are not. I believe Cyan did “Officially” announce/ recognized and designated the Guild of Writers to a role and purpose.
The second, is that the very nature of Open Source Uru will have a natural divide of the fan base into the traditional story line themes to content and those that do not and what lies in between these opposites.
How this will effect the existing fan base and future fans to growing MOOSE (Myst Online Open Source Experiment) is open to speculation here. :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:07 am 
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Jahmen wrote:
Artic_Wagon Wrote:

Quote:
So far and in my mind, there a group of dedicated fans that
stands out... way, way above all other groups (official guilds) and
it is the old "Alcugs gang".


Artic, your Reference “Alcugs gang” ? For those explorers who come here and find this thread, most will not likely understand your Alcugs reference, unless you provide use with more about the who, how and what they are is about and have done. Could you add some more information to better introduce and explain Alcugs please.



Btw, I did say "in my mind" which I beleive makes it a personnal opinion as opposed to a "universal truth"

This is a good example of a big "political" problem. We have been asked not to be specific about certain subjects
on "this site".

Lets say, it has to do with certain fans who are planning ahead for a possible "Open" Uru Online.

It would be a good idea to inquire at Guild of Writers who have kind of hosted the Alcugs gang. :wink:

p.s. try a Google search for alcugs :!: :idea:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:20 am 
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Alcugs is an existing open-source Uru server project that started after Prologue shut down, and is an alternative to Cyan's Untìl Uru servers.

The name stands for A Live Compatible Uru Game Server. More information is on the Alcugs wiki (http://alcugs.almlys.org/), NOT the Guild of Writers site.

(It's kinda annoying to see GoW as the "go to" place for everything that can't be discussed in detail here. The focus at GoW is on the engine and custom content, not existing server implementations that already have their own forums.)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:02 am 
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Jahmen wrote:
I see no reasons for not having any number of Guilds the same name or by what ever names and purposes, but all this suggests to me the following;
The first, is that Guilds by any name or intended purpose will be either “Officially” Cyan sanctioned and those that are not. I believe Cyan did “Officially” announce/ recognized and designated the Guild of Writers to a role and purpose.
Are you saying that Cyan somewhere announced or recognized the people gathered at the guildofwriters.com site as the "Official" Guild of Writers, Jahmen?
Or are you saying that Cyan at one time designated an intended purpose and role for some future group yet to be officially sanctioned by Cyan?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:13 am 
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For new comers: have a look at this 2007 post about the guilds...
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=194076#194076

Some older members could also refresh their "long term memory cells". :P :lol:
(first sticky annoncement thread at the Guilds forums)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:54 pm 
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My reply post: Show some references to past Cyan announcements to future intent with which Cyan may take OSU with Guilds and their future structure. Since the present Guild sites had some Cyan announced recognition and intended roles and given the divisions created with fan reactions in the past and present Guild forum sites to structure, politics, direction, bla bla bla etc..., I was looking for some posts as to how this could effect (Good or Bad) the Uru fan base return for growing OSU.

First Though;
Pardox Wrote:
Quote:
Alcugs is an existing open-source Uru server project that started after Prologue shut down, and is an alternative to Cyan's Untìl Uru servers.

The name stands for A Live Compatible Uru Game Server. More information is on the Alcugs wiki (http://alcugs.almlys.org/), NOT the Guild of Writers site.


Thanx Paradox! Your post info and link was what I had wanted from Artic to post for us, not that his google search post suggestion for Alcugs wasn’t a useful alternative.


Emor D'ni Lap Wrote Jahmen
Quote:
Are you saying that Cyan somewhere announced or recognized the people gathered at the guildofwriters.com site as the "Official" Guild of Writers, Jahmen?

Thanx for pointing the need for more clarification. Yes I am saying that Cyan did announce and recognized guildofwriters.com site in the past as to a role in the FCAL (Fan Created Art Licensed) game content process. However, if it was to be with Cyan’s initially intended MORE (Myst Online Re-restoration Experiment) announcement i.e. Cyan run Server/ Open Source game or to continue with the later, Cyan announcement after the MORE indefinite hold status to releasing Open Source for fan run servers and/ or both we are all now waiting for, I’m uncertain.
Quote:
Or are you saying that Cyan at one time designated an intended purpose and role for some future group yet to be officially sanctioned by Cyan?

Yes, sort of . . . Cyan did designate the (GoW) guildofwriters.com site and the (GoMa) Guild of Maintainers and (GoMe) Guild of Messengers to roles in an announcement, though how Official or where it now stands in the ever changing landscape plans to OSU seems uncertain to me.

Artic_Wagon Posted link to:
Quote:
graydragon Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:49 pm — Post subject: The Guilds

Remember, the guild system will change in the future. Feel free to talk to each other about what you would like to see in a guild system. Cyan has a plan for what it wants the system to be and we hope to show you that plan in the future.

Thanx Artic! This Cyan announced future plan for a guild system in 08-06-2007 was approximately 2 years, 5 months ago, and was pre- Myst Online: Re-restoration Experiment (MORE) announcement 07- 02-2008.
Not meant sarcastic by pointing to how old, but that is it old and dated, yet a good starting point.

Chogon Posted: MORE Roadmap
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:54 pm — Post subject: MORE - letter to MystOnline fans.
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15804

For Emor D'ni Lap
Myst Online: Re-restoration Experiment (MORE)
Emor D'ni Lap, is a shorted version of the announcement reference in part to what I was trying to express.

+ MORE servers will be restarted. These will be run by Cyan and run on machines. . .

+ Release of the 3DS Max Plasma plugins for creating MORE content. Release of the source for the plugin (only) to the Guild of Writers. This will allow for the easier creation of fan created tools as well as being able to use what Cyan used for creating Myst Online content.

+ The Guild of Maintainers (in conjunction with Guild of Writers) will act as an agent in approving fan created content creation for MORE.

+ Create methods and processes for testing fan created MORE content. How this will work has not been determined but is crucial for fan created content. Then a process will be created to bring Guild of Maintainers final approved and tested content forward to main server for all users to enjoy.

+ Release binaries for a few front end servers to be run on fan run servers (front end shards). These fan run servers will have to be registered with the Cyan server and will help alleviate bandwidth issues. . .

+ Create processes and release binary updates to the front end shards so that shard owners can host specific age game instances (such as a particular Neighborhood) and be able to control the states of that instance . . .
and later . . . Sorry for some of the confusion. We did want to let the Guild of Messengers have some exclusive time with the announcement. I'm sorry if that confused some fans.

Chogon Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:04 pm — Post subject: MORE Urulive status - Strange times.

We have no alternative than to put this project (MORE) on hold. The ultimate future of MORE UruLive will be determined over the coming months. If or when moneys become available we will reassess the roadmap at that time.

Chogon Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:48 pm — Post subject: Two more sections
These new sections are for discussing fan create ages and artwork for use in MOULOS/OSMOUL.

Above Post MOULOS/OSMOUL. acronyms are Myst Online Uru Live Open Source or Open Source Myst Online Uru Live in replacement of the former (MORE) Myst Online: Re-restoration Experiment plan.

Lynnutte Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:28 pm — Post subject: Cyan Hands over Myst Online to the fans.

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/tx ... ostID=8731

The headline reads "Cyan makes it official: "Myst" now in the hands of its fans"

Jahmen just sayin that given the announcements and time spans between them and lack of new ones to clarify Cyans plans to specifics, I remain uncertain to Cyan intentions for the present Guilds i.e. GoW, GoMa, GoMe GoC and GoMe sites future use and/ or if or how they may be restructured and used in future OSMOUL game. However it goes, it can and will impact fan base feelings and return factors. Trying to keep the thread focus back to looking to known fan division issues and how they will and can influence fan base decisions to return or not. I'm saying how Cyan addresses of fails to address the Guilds future purpose and place, it may have a huge effect on who will and won't return because if they do and do it right, many who left may then feel their reasons and concerns for leaving have now gotten addressed. Lets Play!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Excellent post, Jahmen - especially the last part. I think the truth is that Cyan has definite ideas about how they would like to see Uru's future take shape, but they just never seem to have the resources to fulfill their dreams. They have a community full of talented members, both in guilds and non-guild groups, just waiting to build that future. If only they could find the money to pay one full time staff member to communicate consistently with these groups and individuals, guide them and organize them to realize their full potential, I think that would go a long way towards addressing many of the issues of fan division while building the best Uru possible. If only... <sigh>

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:12 pm 
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I don't want to quibble with the excellent Tai'lahr, but I'd say "had" instead of "has". I think of this as the past. Maybe we are saying the same thing.

There's been no communication from Cyan, and they haven't even been able to get open source Uru out yet. MORE is no more! (I know, pad pun). I think the days of doing anything with guilds, given Cyan input-- it's over.

And I'm not sorry about that. It's been years since full time community management, and that was in the Ubisoft days, never in the Cyan days. It's an old story. If you want "official" volunteer groups, they always require some form of direction, or management, if you want to call it that. That sort of direction never happened.

I think that the new situation is good, actually. We don't need to pretend anymore. Groups will come together and do their thing.

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 Post subject: Quibble or Squabble?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Quibble or Squabble? :?: The Cyan King’s announcement to a future guild system intent and in the absence of any more recent announcements to address it or really anything more for that matter. . .
I believe (Has) or (Had) might be more to the matter of personal perspective, based upon each individuals (Has) or (Had) preferred outcome to what Cyan does or doesn’t do in the way of their original intentions for a Guild system.
“Had”, might be more accurate towards Cyan’s original Guild announced intentions not likely being addressed again or fulfilled again, if and when Open Source Uru becomes a released reality again.
Whereas, “has” might reflect a more open mind towards wanting to see Cyan carry through on their original announced Guild system intentions.

Some “Fan Divisions”contributing to those who will not and those that might return to (OS) Open Source to support and grow it might be:

1. The initial Guilds forming and being set up mess that was allowed to happen from the absence of the Cyan King saying, this is how we had planned to see the guilds system work and be used in the future OS game. ( Sore point for some fans and a non-return to Uru for others.) Can it and will it be made right?

2. Guilds active groups (Alcugs) & others and the unseen/ unknown levels of use and involvement by Cyan as a resource and partner in Cyan efforts to fix code, decide licencing, etc. . . to get OSU going. Arguably Cyan has lost fan resources for FCAL content to better grow OSU for not allowing or better addressing and use of . . .
(Note: “Others” pertains to my own lack of specific knowledge of them and is not meant to disrespect any.)

3. The long wait to see what the Licensing of IP (Intellectual Property) Cyan Myst MOUL (Myst Online Uru Live) game content will be allowed for fan run servers. Technical Post for someone more knowledgeable to how might best a Cyan run main server run in conjunction with fan run”shard” servers and share Cyan IP between them. This could be a huge issue for fans or end up being nothing at all. Will depend on how IP is shared and what IP is shared.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Most people still miss the idea that there are multiple sets of guilds. There are the In-Character (IC) guilds of the D’ni. Those are the Original and Historic guilds of the story. They do not exist today.

During the 03-04 game fan run guilds formed. DPWR.net/Guild of Archivers refers to those as the Restored Guilds. Because of the Alternate Reality Game (ARG) nature/aspects of the game there was a mixing of the IC DRC (D’ni Restoration Council) guilds within the game and their reflected counter parts in Real Life (iRL) the OOC (Out of Character) fan created guilds. Myst-Uru Guilds IC and OOC Part-I

I do not know of any OOC guild Cyan set up. Fan formed guilds were recognized by Cyan, I guess based on performance, or not. I am pretty sure Cyan (Rand and crew) had not decided what to do with and how they would use the guilds. They had ideas and outlines. They started to implement them in 07-08 and changed the IC nature of the guilds in game, which twisted a lot of panties.

During the Until Uru era OOC guilds formed and changed. During that time Uru Obsession was the more popular forum, much like MOUL forum is now. Their agreement with Cyan, to not support hacking, caused many to use Cloclwork’s forum. I think it was from Clockwork that Alcugs and GoW sprang. (Clockwork crashed a couple of times with varying amounts of work and information lost). I do see some from Clockwork at the core of ALCUGS and GoW. But, I could have that wrong. I think only GoC has published the history of their OOC Guild of Cartographer’s formation, so it’s hard to know how most OOC guilds formed.

By the time that Cyan was active again and D’mala was started most of the OOC guilds we see today were in place. They were all made by fans. I think Cyan was by this time seriously considering how to use fans to reduce their work load and costs and add participation options. In a general industry wide stance gaming companies were considering how to take advantage of fan created content. Second Life’s meteoric like popularity and massive amount of fan created content was changing industry thinking.

How Cyan planned to use guilds/fans in the GameTap Uru (T-shirt era) and how that changed when they shifted over to MO:RE ideas gets scrambled in the forum conversations. None of these shifts in IC and OOC fan participation are clearly delineated by Cyan or posts in the forums and certainly not in the minds of fans. Jahmen’s point #1 (post) about the King’s intent as well as the problems we have seen caused by the IC relating of the HISTORIC guilds problems being taken by many as an ARG aspect they think/thought reflected events in RL and the OOC guilds, are both confused in fans’ minds.

Jahmen’s question regarding guilds of ‘Can it and will it be made right?’ can lead people to a couple of conclusions. One I consider a basic misconception of the problem and its solution. One is that Cyan’s intentions are where the problem started and it is up to Cyan to fix. My belief is the other conclusion is more realistic and likely to yield positive results. Cyan did not make guilds a 'problem' the fans did. Therefore, Cyan cannot fix them, only the fans can. I think one big step in that is omitting use of the term 'guild' in OOC discussion of future open source.

Now that we are headed toward the open source era it is even less clear what Cyan intends and speculation makes it more confusing and divisive. I think once one leaves Cyan out of the guilds/fan-participation equation it gets very clear. Only those that want some form of control have problems with the freedom of fan run anything; guilds, servers, game modifications, game additions, new fan content, and etc. It appears Cyan will only be interested in how their content is used. Beyond that we are on our own. :)

The long wait for licensing is leading many fans to try other things, i.e., THERE, SL, Hypergrid, Team Fortress, and etc. Until we see a license, I think that trend will continue. New groups are forming and existing groups are moving in their directions. Once we have licenses we will probably see some gathering and coming together. The longer that takes the more the various groups will be set in their paths.

/me waves Licenses Now sign.

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Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
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