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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:05 pm 
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OK -- now I have my posts in the right thread -- here goes ---

On Cyan's role in the guild thing - once Cyan, in the olden days, made any guilds "official", they had the obligation to manage the process, set some group rules, and stay active. Of course they didn't do that, which is not, in retrospect surprising. Those days are long gone. I'm glad of that -- if you can't manage something, don't attempt to make official groups -- let it go.

To me, guild means a group. As an example, the slackers are as legitimate a group as a group called the Guild of Maintainers. Liked minded people come together and make groups. Sometimes people are in more than one group, groups form associations with each other, two groups form from one....It's all good.

On various flavors of guild or group drama, this is not uncommon. Across virtual worlds, and in the "real" world, volunteer groups can engender conflict. The world of Uru is no exception. I think there's actually less fan drama than in other venues I've seen.

This is why, in my ideal world, when people speak about Uru fans or what 'we" should be doing -- I think it would be great if they framed the discussion in terms of who they are talking about - me, my group, something. Often I can't figure out who people are addressing when they refer to Uru fans, or Cyan fans -- does this include me. I wonder, or people who have different opinions from the one presented, people who still think of themselves as fans?

Anyway -- to use a cliche term "it's all good".

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:25 am 
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To me, guild means a group. As an example, the slackers are as legitimate a group as a group called the Guild of Maintainers.


Don't you think you're being a tad too reasonable here? :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:13 am 
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Somehow I knew you would post, Tomala! :D

To me, that's the wonder of Uru -- so many different people, different groups of people liked it. And if we get open source Uru, that will continue. I think that everyone who wants to be in MMO Uru will find a group that resonates with them.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Jahmen said:

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the only thing that really matters is that it becomes a publicly available reality to play again.


You already said it all J

as for groups, depends what you are talking about, if you are talking about the original Cavern and the original story the groups will evoilve from that.

other groups define themselves and may be their own reality certaily but the rest of us dont have to accept them as equal in any way to the original Guilds. The Guilds are the Guilds of the D'ni history and interest me greatly.

Some of the other groups some of which are mentioned I have no interest in whatsover. That is the beauty of a free community.... and being independent and equal explorers all of us. We get to choose.

if the Cavern reopens we will come.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:43 am 
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Somehow, however any future Uru plays out, people will settle into groups, groups that do thing, groups that socialize, groups that IC and OOC and hang out and speculate and and and... Names are pretty unimportant, what people are doing is more interesting.

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 Post subject: MOUL Returned!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:48 am 
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Nalates, thanx for the very informative Post and links with additional stuff.
Your post and links cover and provide lots of material on the topic of confusion some explorer fans have had in general and with the Guild concepts in and out of Uru game play and the differences between the characters of play and those the explorer fans take on.

You head the GoC (Guild of Cartographers) and remain an active member with the other MOUL RL Guilds, so your post information & links might best be taken in the context of your affiliations and perspective bias. One persons position and views shared by a number of others with like minded views, motivations and goals.

The intention behind “Lost Uru fans and fans divisions” is to bring out what others see as causing fan divisions and fan losses that might be improved and have them post their own insights to what they see might be done to improve fan interests and future participation.

As to what constitutes Uru fans in this thread, I speak to any and all who have played Uru either in stand alone or on-line versions and want to be a part of any further future Uru game play. :roll:

8) Now that MOUL has returned today :shock: I believe that past issues may reemerge and new solutions and natural changes will run their course to bring the core explorers back together again.

I know some believe the MOUL RL Guilds today as they are, will stand and need no change. While others believe change is necessary and inevitable. The changes and influences that will come from those now in charge of and involved in the MOUL RL Guilds, will now be challeneged back in the MOUL caverns Guild Halls with lots of Uru explores making known their views. Maybe the MOUL RL Guilds will listen and hear this time or at least Cyan will. Future influences directly by and from Cyan and those of the Uru Community of explorers will all eventually find a balance with time. At the end of the day, if Cyan eventually does get Open Source running as part of the MOUL Game, as most of us believe they will do, there will then be a place for everyone found. I want to see MOUL grow with new explorers and new ages being created with the help of everyone. My dream is to see a system develope out of all the explorers efforts coming together for producing new ages content to grow MOUL to the limitless hights of the Uru explorers imaginations.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:34 am 
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Jahmen wrote:
You head the GoC (Guild of Cartographers) and remain an active member with the other MOUL RL Guilds, so your post information & links might best be taken in the context of your affiliations and perspective bias. One persons position and views shared by a number of others with like minded views, motivations and goals.

It might. Or one might be smart and consider events and information I wrote of and decide if my opinions are all that colored by my affiliations and biases as a better context.

The point I keep trying to make is that those of us around for the forming of the OOC/RL guilds know how and why they were formed. Those I find ascribing motives and agendas to the guilds are generally clueless to the real motivations or even how the guilds formed. The use of the term ‘guild’ gives the uninformed and those with an agenda too easy a brush to paint with.

That some think there is a ‘head’ of the GoC just illustrates the degree of misunderstanding.

Jahmen wrote:
The intention behind “Lost Uru fans and fans divisions” is to bring out what others see as causing fan divisions and fan losses that might be improved and have them post their own insights to what they see might be done to improve fan interests and future participation.

While I think it is good to look at what can bring people together and what divides to get people talking, I think it is a mistake to think one can encourage communication without accurate information and ever come to an intelligent consensus. It’s like trying to solve global warming without knowing the cause. If it is manmade we take one course of action. If it is caused by solar cycles modified by eccentric orbital cycles then a different course of action is called for. In our community we have lots of misinformation about the guilds and the divisions attributed to them. One tends to end up rehashing the issues in an attempt to 'fix' things, which is often more divisive than healing.

… there will then be a place for everyone found. The use of ‘will then’ seems to presuppose there is not a place for every one now and that something must happen before one can find a place. I see this as a basic misunderstanding of the nature of Uru and the community… may be not so much you but of many in the community. The saying, in much of the community, is; see a need and fill it. I see that as all about making your own place. Uru creates the possibility or need. The individual has to realize it, decide they want to do something with it, figure out how and do it. The places are there. One only need figure out how to pick and fill their place.

It is never possible to change the organization of the Uru community. They are independent people free to do what ever they want. When one looks to change things to make things better they usually fail, think politicians. Most problems in our community come from how people perceive and think of things and people. Until they decide to change their self and thinking, little if anything can change. Getting factual information to people and letting them decide to change their thinking and actions is about the only thing that works and when enough of them change the community looks different.

Other than providing fun, entertainment and enjoyment (or chocolate), I know of no reliable way to bring fans together. One can however drive wedges into a community. The Standards for Discussion & Debate are about avoiding and or handling the behaviors that turn issues into wedges.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:18 pm 
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I think there is nothing to fix in terms of fan divisions -- really. Some people like each other. Some people dislike each other quite intensely. It's been like that as long as there have been fans of the Myst series games. I don't think that's going to change. But it's OK -- in the cavern my experience has been that people tend to be kind and just avoid people they don't like. And there will be neighborhoods where like minded people can hang out.

What I would like, as I said in another post -- I'd like to see multiple servers, multiple instance of Uru run by fans. I think it gives players the greatest flexiblity.

I also think, personal opinion, that there are no "official" guilds anymore, just groups of people coming together to have fun. I'd be quite sad if any group was made sort of "official" again by Cyan -- no way can Cyan manage that, in my opinion. I'd rather they concentrate on getting a better playing experience (decreasing lag, enabling people to get in) and work on the open source thing. That's my hope.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:35 am 
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It might. Or one might be smart and consider events and information I wrote of and decide if my opinions are all that colored by my affiliations and biases as a better context.


To me, this suggests I am neither smart or correct in stating you have bias to your provided information you have written.
You only state subjectively to the facts of matters without feelings or personal opinion?
You have no loyalties to your affiliations?

Quote:
That some think there is a ‘head’ of the GoC just illustrates the degree of misunderstanding.


Really? My mistake Nalates, you are not a "Head" but a titled "Guild Master", not to be mistaken with being "Grand Master", though your title does present you with a position of leadership or headship that affords you some influence and control. Does it not?

Quote:
In our community we have lots of misinformation about the guilds and the divisions attributed to them. One tends to end up rehashing the issues in an attempt to 'fix' things, which is often more divisive than healing.

What some call misinformation and rehashing of issues that could do more damage than harm to the present statuesque, seems suspiciously as an ongoing agenda aimed at keeping those who have in the past and present would like to see some changes made to improve existing guilds less structured approach. Seems every time a thread comes up with anything about changes or better ways to do things, the same members rush in to silence such thoughts with the “How bad and dangerous to do something else speeches.” with the “they are confused and misinformed” labeling to discount anything and everything that doesn’t fit how things are now. Lets post and save these poor lost and misinformed dissenters! Don’t listen to them because they are confused!, misinformed! Everything is just perfect as is. Lets not allow them to gain any support for such crazy notions.


Quote:
… there will then be a place for everyone found.


I can agree that there are many places already with which a place might be found by any and all explorers seeking something of their own to do or be a part of. Though some explorer felt the need to go out on their own and created their own places. “GUILD POLITICS” Somehow, I don’t believe any efforts to making the existing guild places better and easier to find and become a apart of as them becoming a whole to purpose is a bad thing. Or trying to get a better defined system with which the RL Guilds all participate together in. I have heard it in the threads “Let us not structure anything or have any rules to standardize how we do things, because that would be bad and stifle the growth and creativity process so vital to explorer created content.” Let avoid the politics of all that and in so doing, do NOTHING! Others are saying “ Let us establish some basic structure or a system with which explorers might better find their way to participating and creating content” Both arguments have there merits. Any attempts to dialogue these opposing views to a mutual blending of them together is made out to be a sacrilegious act! Politics best left alone, because we all know politicians never accomplish anything positive and good.

It seems that any attempt by anyone to bring out what they see as the facts to needed changes are quickly discounted and dismissed by others as to being confused and misinformed and not thinking right, out of touch, etc... Then their ideas and suggestions are quickly covered over with long winded posts that muddy the issue and ideas by introducing entertaining fodder to blur the issue until it dies and goes away.

While some might portray me as naive, clueless, confused and ill-informed, I am not without some basic grasp and knowledge to the events that surround the guilds coming to be or to the Uru Communities feelings about them and their failings, despite how much they might like to present a “everything is working perfectly fine” persona against what had been a Uru Community consensus to the contrary. I seem to be the only one left stuborn enough to keep posting those concerns, all the others gave up trying long ago in the absence of MOUL and the guilds indifference to them.

OK, have I written enough yet to get readers to forget what Nalates post was about? :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:05 am 
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Hey Jahmen, long time, no see :). I can't wait to see you in Cavern!

I used to be concerned about Guilds, differences in opinions on the forums, and other points that lend themselves to multiple, and sometimes contrary and contentious, opinions. Now that MOUL is back, I believe the sentiment in my signature line, now more than ever - I'M JUST HAPPY TO BE HERE.

I am so happy to be back with fellow Explorers in the Cavern, and to be with my hoodies again , that I couldn't give a rat's arse about politics, groups, divisions, what have you. I know that I'm happy when I'm URUing with other people.

No MOUL for almost 2 years was enough for me to believe that being part of the MOUL community (not the forum, but in-game community) means far more than the differences of opinions anyone can find if she/he looks for them.

This isn't a criticism of anyone. We've got MOULagain, it will grow and unfold as a function of all who call it an online home.

I'm just happy to be here/there, and I'm happy that all who wish to be a part of the MOULagain community have the chance to do so.

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