It is currently Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:00 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Paranoia Lives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
I'm interested in seeing the discussion on this idea (from people other than those who follow my blog). So this is reposted from here.

-----
It is, frankly, hilarious. MOULa has been working for less than a week and we already have people wringing their hands, worried about Uru without Cyan. This is not a sign of a mature community. This irrational fear that Fan Ages/stories are somehow lesser to Cyan is ludicrous, and it will end Uru if people keep seriously entertaining it.

It is incredibly frustrating for me to look at the forums after just leaving Fahehts, Cass, Jonnae, or Tre’bivdil and see people saying their concerned fan content will make Uru into Second Life. It’s even more frustrating to see Rand Miller, an adult, lend credibility to this absurd claim. The only people who are concerned about fan content are the ones who haven’t spent much time experiencing it. There are poorly-made Ages. But guess what, I don’t download them. Second Life? This is not a rational response. Many, including myself, comment on the Uru community’s unique qualities (of which stubbornness is one). Since we assume we have qualities which distinguish us from other gaming communities, why do we think that same community is going to act like the Second Life community (which, by the way, is even more passionate and belligerent in the defense of their game)?

It was and still is similarly frustrating to be conducting an IC story, only to have someone say “oh, they’re just RPing” or “why don’t you leave the story to Cyan?” My response is usually “because Cyan’s last story had parts that sucked more than the Teledahn sub-pump,” but the better response is “why should we?” Why is it wrong to tolerate, evaluate, and embrace/discard a story? Why do people hold URU/D’ni/Myst canon is such high regard when Cyan has been said canon’s greatest enemy?

Being able to respond maturely to Ages and stories you disagree with (and by maturely, I don’t mean by using R language) is something essential for the new Uru. This is why we need to eventually move away from Cyan approval to community approval. After all, that is what is going on all the time. There are many people who do not approve of Jalak, Minkata, and other places because they lack Nexus pedestals. I and others don’t approve of calling neighborhoods “Bevins.” Many don’t approve of the game starting in Relto. Cyan has made very good games. As I have said before, though, they are neither friends nor enemies. The community would benefit, Uru would benefit, and Cyan would benefit if people would stop clinging to Cyan like a parent. We must mature if MOULa is going work.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:24 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 6:06 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Anywhere
Fan ages won't save Uru. Only by playing the ages that Cyan has already made knowing that they can't focus on making new ones will keep Uru alive.

(There, me disagreeing with you should get some more support!)

_________________
I used to be an adventurer like you, then I found other games to play.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:42 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:33 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Jurupa Valley, CA USA
For my part, I don't find anything inherently wrong with fan-made content or storylines.

But it's not why I'm here. I'm here for Myst, and Uru. I'm here for that story.


I'm not particularly interested in everyone else's Mary-Sue adventures. I'm by no means a Cyan-worshipper, but it's their content I came for, and stayed around for.

For every fan-made age with real art direction, good writing, and solid programming there will be many with sub-par work on all of those areas. I welcome them being made, since it's worth it for those few gems that come through.

My only concern is that the kitchen staff will stop making the entrées because they keep getting interrupted preparing the appetizers.

Everyone has a different reason why they're here, and what they want out of their time playing Uru. The group is too diverse for everyone to agree, or to make even a modestly large segment happy all at once.

_________________
MOULa KI #32712
MOULa KI #23298
MOUL KI #35129
D'mala KI #74265
Gehn KI #10113


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:48 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:01 pm
Posts: 1890
None of these arguments have changed since 2007. I mean, you're right -- look at the forums, and then go back to the forum threads that surfaced the monent Cyan broached the notion of player Guilds. Same points, same replies.

This doesn't fill me with hopelessness because, really, Uru is almost exactly where it was in late 2007. (Aside from being free! Which is a difference in some ways -- more newcomers -- but not for most of us.) We have a static Cavern, cautious optimism, and Cyan giving us hopes and goals but no promises or timelines.

(This is not an attack on Cyan; it's an observation.)

So, yeah, we have the same worries and hopes. Some from the same names; some reinvented by newcomers. I don't find that surprising. It's easy to focus on the arguments until you think "Oh god, that's all the Uru community ever does. Argue."

That's an illusion. Disbelieve! The Internet amplifies grievance.

And, if you want my advice, don't get caught up re-fighting the same battles over and over. That's *how* the Internet amplifies grievance. It's no fun and it doesn't make the world a better place. I pretty much said what I have to say about fan Ages back in MOUL, and I'm going to try to stick with that until the next actual update.

(I may fail, of course. :)

_________________
Andrew Plotkin -- Seltani founding member


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Let's break this down.
Deledrius wrote:
For my part, I don't find anything inherently wrong with fan-made content or storylines.

But it's not why I'm here. I'm here for Myst, and Uru. I'm here for that story.

But what is Myst and Uru to you in terms of story? If it's Atrus and Gehn, etc. then the ship has sailed (personally, I wouldn't mind if Cyan or someone else kept making stories like Riven's with graphics like Revelations). If it's the Bahro and Yeesha, then that's understandable (though I don't personally enjoy those stories as much). If it's for D'ni and the kings and the culture, I think the fans can address that on the small scale through projects like the Lara Documents.

Quote:
For every fan-made age with real art direction, good writing, and solid programming there will be many with sub-par work on all of those areas. I welcome them being made, since it's worth it for those few gems that come through.

My only concern is that the kitchen staff will stop making the entrées because they keep getting interrupted preparing the appetizers.

Everyone has a different reason why they're here, and what they want out of their time playing Uru. The group is too diverse for everyone to agree, or to make even a modestly large segment happy all at once.

This comes down to personal preferences and your last idea is the core reason of why this sort of paranoia is damaging. We are a very diverse bunch, and that is the key. One group can find and enjoy Ages they like, another group can find their preference, and the Ages get progressively better through a helpful community and a rating system. The problem comes when you restrict people to Ages at "Cyan Quality." Then you lack the diverse representation needed to keep such a diverse community interested.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1814
Location: California
Whilyam wrote:
It is incredibly frustrating for me to look at the forums after just leaving Fahehts, Cass, Jonnae, or Tre’bivdil and see people saying their concerned fan content will make Uru into Second Life. It’s even more frustrating to see Rand Miller, an adult, lend credibility to this absurd claim. The only people who are concerned about fan content are the ones who haven’t spent much time experiencing it. There are poorly-made Ages. But guess what, I don’t download them. Second Life? This is not a rational response. Many, including myself, comment on the Uru community’s unique qualities (of which stubbornness is one). Since we assume we have qualities which distinguish us from other gaming communities, why do we think that same community is going to act like the Second Life community (which, by the way, is even more passionate and belligerent in the defense of their game)?

I can understand the frustration. I agree with your thinking. Uru will remain pretty much the Uru we know whether it is Cyan or fans building the story.

It has been some time since I made a pass through the fan created ages. When I last did I thought they were ALL very Myst like. Quality varied but that is part of the learning curve. But, there were no brothels, dance poles, dragons, vampires, and whatever other things one thinks represent Second Life style.

Even in SL the Myst style places are not SL like… oh that is convoluted… but I think most can figure out my meaning. Crux Isle is an excellent example of what a fan created age is like in SL. Nice puzzles decent graphics, not yet Cyan level but pretty nice and it includes a Myst style story line.

Even in SL the Uru community is more Myst like than chaotic, which I believe supports Whilyam’s thinking.

Whilyam wrote:
“oh, they’re just RPing” or “why don’t you leave the story to Cyan?”

I think much of the Uru community has grown since we first started role play in Uru. I will give the massive number of fans in SL props for having generally decent RP skills and knowing better than to interrupt other’s RP. Such a comment in any SL RP area would result in an IM to the region game master and such an inconsiderate person would be talked to and if unrepentant ejected from the region.

I support Whilyam’s point that RP will be important to the future Uru. How we will handle IC and OOC play in Uru is something that we have been discussing at OpenUru.org. (See: IC/OOC confusion: how to deal with it? (OOC) ). There is a section in Hints & Tips on IC and OOC here on MOUL forum.

Tomala, I can’t imagine how playing Uru in its current form is going to save it. The demand for new content has repeatedly been the down fall of Uru. Most large MMO’s exist on fan created content. Anyone following game development is aware that most of the game design community is becoming aware of fans’ desire to influence the environment by adding, moving, changing, removing, and building things within the game. All are looking for ways to allow fans to tell their stories.

Without new content, people will finish the game, ask if there is anything more, and move on.

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:15 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:33 pm
Posts: 878
Location: Jurupa Valley, CA USA
Whilyam wrote:
But what is Myst and Uru to you in terms of story? If it's Atrus and Gehn, etc. then the ship has sailed (personally, I wouldn't mind if Cyan or someone else kept making stories like Riven's with graphics like Revelations). If it's the Bahro and Yeesha, then that's understandable (though I don't personally enjoy those stories as much). If it's for D'ni and the kings and the culture, I think the fans can address that on the small scale through projects like the Lara Documents.

Well, I think it's fairly well accepted that Myst is Atrus and Gehn, etc. That story's wrapped up pretty well. Yeesha and the bahro, for all of its faults and unevenness, is still largely unfinished. We kinda got closure in Myst V, but then it was opened right back up in MOUL and dropped. Most of this has been a fault of circumstance.

As for D'ni culture... it's fictional. Putting aside the legality for the sake of argument, that means anyone can make up stuff for it and it's all equally true (or false, as the case may be). That doesn't make it all equally good, or interesting.

In truth, I'm having a hard time discussing this because I'm really sitting on both sides here. I myself have contributed to some of the early tools and progress for Age-making, and have dabbled in making my own. But I'm also pretty discerning and critical of myself, and want to expect that same critical self-appraisal from others.

I just feel like your post about community paranoia comes off as a bit reactionary and paranoid itself. That's not to say I don't understand your frustration, but I don't agree with all of your points.

Whilyam wrote:
This comes down to personal preferences and your last idea is the core reason of why this sort of paranoia is damaging. We are a very diverse bunch, and that is the key. One group can find and enjoy Ages they like, another group can find their preference, and the Ages get progressively better through a helpful community and a rating system. The problem comes when you restrict people to Ages at "Cyan Quality." Then you lack the diverse representation needed to keep such a diverse community interested.


I don't think "restricting" people to Ages of Cyan Quality is damaging. There's nothing wrong with having standards. But only in a social sense of restriction. Back when the concept of user-made content was first being broached on COBBS I was one of the first to demand an open process that allowed anyone to submit content to the community; I believe in the concept that natural popularity will float the creme to the top. But to pretend I don't prefer Cyan Quality (and by that I'm of course talking about the mythical ideal here. Even Cyan Ages have faults, especially the ones released near the end of MOUL), would be disingenuous. I don't really see why I would desire something that looks and plays like it was churned out without care. I was disappointed with Dereno, and I'd feel the same way with a fan Age of that quality too (though I might tend to be more forgiving). No one's perfect, but striving for it is worth more than achieving it.

What does concern me is that we're unlikely to get any new content from Cyan any time soon, and asking them to spend time on what is effectively a side dish, to me, seems counter-productive. We've been making our own Ages and other goodies for some time without much official help from them aside from some generous look-the-other-way policies. That conviction and industry among the fans won't change. I'm not worried about it going away.

But I get the sense we're talking cross-purpose here. I don't really disagree with you as much as I disagree with your tone and your dire warnings of the danger of dire warnings.

_________________
MOULa KI #32712
MOULa KI #23298
MOUL KI #35129
D'mala KI #74265
Gehn KI #10113


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 388
Location: Tennessee
Ah, this discussion, which continues forever. With MOULagain, we have an opportunity to really move forward. But it will require a lot of compromises and understanding.

First... yes, it is fiction. We aren't insane. But there is a very strong canon in the Myst universe, and canon is law. What Cyan says or signs off on is canon. What some fan says is not canon. The distinction is important. That doesn't mean that fans cannot create their own "expansions," but that should never be confused with the real thing.

However, I think if MOUL is going to survive, it will require community support rather than corporate support. We know Cyan will try (and I've always been of the opinion that we should trust the author, they know what they are doing, or at least are in the best position to make it up as they go along.) We need to try as well. That's why I think submissions should come from all over the place. Any fan. Ages, objects, history, everything, submitted from all over... and then sent through a meat grinder of quality control (I'm looking at the Guild of Maintainers here.) I think a community-based game can work, so long as the community agrees that quality is required. And I mean Cyan-level quality. Don't get me wrong, non-Cyan-level quality has its place, and I'd love to see the Nexus be able to be pointed at fan-made ages no matter how well they work, or how beautifully they are rendered. But the ages in Uru, the ages that get journal entries in the library, the ages that are "canon," those don't need to come from Cyan but they do need to be Cyan quality.

This is a middle-of-the-road approach. On the one hand, we want to encourage creativity, lest Uru just dry up and wither away. On the other hand, we want to maintain quality, lest Uru become like Bantam-Doubleday's series of Star Wars novels (Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, anyone?) These are not mutually exclusive goals. This does not make it impossible, it simply makes it a balancing act.

And that's really what it's about. After two years since Uru shut down, and having spent that time writing for national RPG campaigns that have many of the same problems as this (a diverse fanbase that all want different things, various factions saying that particular plot twists are awesome/destroy the game, etc.), I've come to the following conclusions.

1. Middle-of-the-road balancing acts mean you're doing a good job. I'm pro fan-submission, and I'm pro-Cyan-level quality standards. Keep that balancing act going. Go too far to either side, it falls apart.

2. Fans need to be pleased. Listen to the fans, hear what they're saying, after all the game is for them. However this is modified by:

3. You cannot please everyone. Listen to the fans, yes, but don't necessarily do what they say. Do what makes the best story, and do what is best for the community. That means you will lose some fairweather fans, but ultimately it means you will maintain a solid core fanbase that will get you through the rough times.

That's my opinion anyway. So... both sides are right, as long as they're in balance.

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:10 pm
Posts: 219
DocOlanA wrote:

1. Middle-of-the-road balancing acts mean you're doing a good job. I'm pro fan-submission, and I'm pro-Cyan-level quality standards. Keep that balancing act going. Go too far to either side, it falls apart.

2. Fans need to be pleased. Listen to the fans, hear what they're saying, after all the game is for them. However this is modified by:

3. You cannot please everyone. Listen to the fans, yes, but don't necessarily do what they say. Do what makes the best story, and do what is best for the community. That means you will lose some fairweather fans, but ultimately it means you will maintain a solid core fanbase that will get you through the rough times.


Perfect explanation. Fan-made Ages will come with OS, and it is bound to make Uru expand, but don't let it do so to the point where this game becomes nothing more than an over-hyped sandbox where Cyan's input is irrelevant.

Balance is key here.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Nalates wrote:
Tomala, I can’t imagine how playing Uru in its current form is going to save it. . .

IT'S A TRAP!

Tomala was, as usual, being sarcastic. Or was she? Moving on.

Deledrius wrote:
I don't think "restricting" people to Ages of Cyan Quality is damaging. There's nothing wrong with having standards. But only in a social sense of restriction. Back when the concept of user-made content was first being broached on COBBS I was one of the first to demand an open process that allowed anyone to submit content to the community; I believe in the concept that natural popularity will float the creme to the top. But to pretend I don't prefer Cyan Quality (and by that I'm of course talking about the mythical ideal here. Even Cyan Ages have faults, especially the ones released near the end of MOUL), would be disingenuous. I don't really see why I would desire something that looks and plays like it was churned out without care. I was disappointed with Dereno, and I'd feel the same way with a fan Age of that quality too (though I might tend to be more forgiving). No one's perfect, but striving for it is worth more than achieving it.

There's a saying "Everyone's for common sense regulation, they just disagree on what it is." That pretty much sums up the problem with asking for Ages of "Cyan Quality." Particularly right off the bat. The problem with the term "Cyan Quality" is that it means different things to different people. Some think it's Ages of equal graphics quality. Some think it's cunning puzzles. Some think it's Cyan-overseen-Fan-produced. Some still think it's Cyan-only! If you have anyone --I don't care whether it's a scary Guild, your neighborhood bridge club, or Mother Teresa-- apply that standard, you will get a myriad of interpretations based on personal preferences and personal alliances.

The other option (better in my opinion) is to set the guideline as "legal" and have the community evaluate quality on their own. Let's take your example for Dereno. A fan makes an Age like Dereno, it is declared legal and released into the fan Nexus. People begin to filter in and share your disappointment with the Age. They open a panel in their KI and rate the Age on a typical five star scale. Let's say they rate it a 3/5. You can then never worry about that Age again by filtering or sorting by rating. Meanwhile, some visitors talk to the creator about the Age and give constructive criticism, changes are implemented, and the Age is improved.

Quote:
What does concern me is that we're unlikely to get any new content from Cyan any time soon, and asking them to spend time on what is effectively a side dish, to me, seems counter-productive. We've been making our own Ages and other goodies for some time without much official help from them aside from some generous look-the-other-way policies. That conviction and industry among the fans won't change. I'm not worried about it going away.

I doubt it will change either. But it can be limited. It can be intimidated.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 388
Location: Tennessee
Here's what I mean when I say Cyan-quality. First, Uru is above all things fully immersive. It is designed to make you feel like you, yourself, are entering the world of D'ni. Thus, any Cyan-quality age must share that. The graphics must be at least Uru quality. Any less would pull you out of the game. Attention should be made to things like background detail. The ages should be rigorously tested for bugs, freezes, etc. There should be absolutely no obvious 4th-wall breaking in-jokes. The age should not violate canon, or be something silly like on board a flying saucer or something like that (you know, unless the bahro have spaceships.)

That is paramount. That is key. Frankly, as long as you accomplish that I tend not to care about puzzles. Oh, I love the puzzles. I love them fiendishly clever. But... puzzles are nothing without the immersion. Puzzles are nothing without feeling that you're part of D'ni. The pod-ages don't really have any puzzles to speak of, and yet they are beautiful and very much D'ni. That's what I mean by Cyan-quality.

In my opinion (and I realize this is only my opinion, but I think from an objective viewpoint everyone can agree with me,) if we sacrifice the above we're no longer playing something in the Myst universe. We may be playing a fiendishly wonderful puzzle game, and it may be tons of fun, but it won't be Myst. I think we can run this game on vast amounts of fan content, but only if the above is held sacred to everything that is done.

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:33 am
Posts: 1182
Location: British Columbia, Canada
The thing to consider is that fan Ages are not necessarily D'ni Ages. A lot of them are Ages written (IC) by current-day explorers. So concerns about D'ni canon might not apply, since many Ages have no relation to the D'ni canon, but moreso to a storyline set up by the Age writer.

In that way, an Age that consists of the interior of a spaceship is a perfectly acceptable creation.

Even Ahra Pahts, the city that was considered to be the "gem" of Age creation for quite a while, isn't a D'ni Age. It is a city written by modern day explorers, who built it into a real inhabited city.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 am
Posts: 388
Location: Tennessee
By "canon" I don't mean only D'ni ages. Explorer ages are actually awesome. But those ages should still be created with canon in mind. There are rules to what can and cannot be written with the Art. There are rules to what can exist. Even though Yeesha bent those rules, rules still existed (and I don't think explorers can pretend to Yeesha's abilities.) On the other hand, you can create just about anything via computer.

It has to be something that can exist in the Myst world. And although the great tree has infinite possibilities, every one of those infinite possibilities do follow Myst canon :)

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
See, this is the problem with putting in a "Cyan-quality" criteria.
Quote:
Here's what I mean when I say Cyan-quality. First, Uru is above all things fully immersive. It is designed to make you feel like you, yourself, are entering the world of D'ni. Thus, any Cyan-quality age must share that. The graphics must be at least Uru quality.

What, in objective, verifiable terms, is Uru quality? The things you state further on are simply vague ideas which, while fine for Cyan's server should not affect others who wish to do their own thing. Let's look at them.

Quote:
Attention should be made to things like background detail.

Like in Er'cana where the distant islands aren't properly blended? Or Tetsonot where it's never explained how the Age can be filling with water and yet only flood four inches?

Quote:
The ages should be rigorously tested for bugs, freezes, etc.

Agreed, but what about the invisible holes in Er'cana's floor? Or the bug that made the Urwin predictably freeze in place in my Negilahn? Or the Delin/Tsogahl door that snaps open and shut? This is not attacking Cyan, just showing that there needs to be a better definition.

Quote:
There should be absolutely no obvious 4th-wall breaking in-jokes.

Like [spoiler]Ahnonay's fake panels showing a distant city? That's an in-joke on how games use "billboards" to make things appear more complex than they are.[/spoiler]

Quote:
The age should not violate canon, or be something silly like on board a flying saucer or something like that (you know, unless the bahro have spaceships.)

Again, this is subjective. The [spoiler]pod in Todelmer[/spoiler] could fall into this. Just what qualifies as silly? You know what sounds silly and non-canon to me? An island with a dock and a galleon, a rocketship, and a log-cabin. Really, where would a D'ni get an English galleon, or a spaceship? Of course, that's Myst Island and I'm being facetious, but it highlights the perils of this sort of vague desire.

Now, if you were to apply two rules, you would have (in my opinion) a far more open and creative environment. The rules are:
1. Must adhere to the Terms of Service aka, not contain content illegal in the United States.
2. Must not cause the game to shut down/crash for users who meet the system requirements.

If you can frame Cyan-Quality into this sort of framework, then this will work, but only for Cyan's server. Outside of Cyan, there still must be freedom for people to choose what goes onto their servers.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:24 pm 
Going back to the original post:

Whilyam wrote:
neither friends nor enemies


I think Cyan could be friends, don't you? I don't think this will work unless we at least look kindly on them, and they on us. That could be a mature relationship.

Paranoia, when it's not actually a mental disorder, results from insecurity, and I think we can be forgiven for feeling a touch insecure. We're still a long way from a stable, viable, open source Uru, and there are many potential slips along that road most of which we don't even know about. It could all go away tomorrow for reasons we couldn't have guessed at. That's just the territory we're in. I understand when people are protective of what they see as Cyan's interests--I'm a bit that way myself, and if those interests have not been precisely defined, it's better to be over-protective than the other way. I understand when people get a bit strident about the perceived lack of communication, while at the same time understanding that Cyan are doing all they can in that direction. And I understand that even assuming all these potential obstacles are overcome and open source Uru happens, people will be worried that others in the community might jeopardise or otherwise spoil it. I have my own (well-publicised at the time) theories about contributory factors to the cancellation of MOUL.

You can't reason that away, no matter how unassailable your logic. It's a gnawing in the gut, a prickling in the skin. You can only try to understand, and believe that good sense will prevail in the end.

I've always said that story is essential to fan content. It's story that justifies the puzzles, provides the sense of immersion, and makes the best graphics meaningful. All those things are important, but they all revolve around story. Without story, what we're creating is an art gallery, and Uru's got one of those. And story will not be coming from Cyan for a while, so it has to come from us.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 177 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 12  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron