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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:21 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
ask him if he'd want to design an age that reveals that Yeesha had a daughter by Kadish.


Will there be some sort of celebration? a wedding preceding? some sort of event that could take place in the dancing bahro age?

Please don't be smiffed. I could not resist.

I know. I know. I am going to stop now. For me this thread has retired. I always get silly when sleepy. Thus the reason a cavern dweller stands out like a sore thumb, toe, whatever.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
See you think of a single editor, I think of everyone as an editor, choosing what to see and whether it is canon or not.

Wouldn't this mean that there will be many versions of canon (one for every editor), negating the idea of canon (determining what is fact)?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Ahvree wrote:
DocOlanA wrote:
ask him if he'd want to design an age that reveals that Yeesha had a daughter by Kadish.


Will there be some sort of celebration? a wedding preceding? some sort of event that could take place in the dancing bahro age?

Please don't be smiffed. I could not resist.

I know. I know. I am going to stop now. For me this thread has retired. I always get silly when sleepy. Thus the reason a cavern dweller stands out like a sore thumb, toe, whatever.


Erm... um... does that mean the plan I had of Sirrus not being dead and finding enough in what's left of Tomahna to learn enough that he does a Gehn and has a son who's even worse and wreaks havoc wherever he goes is out?

Darn. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Ahvree wrote:
DocOlanA wrote:
ask him if he'd want to design an age that reveals that Yeesha had a daughter by Kadish.


Will there be some sort of celebration? a wedding preceding? some sort of event that could take place in the dancing bahro age?

Please don't be smiffed. I could not resist.

I know. I know. I am going to stop now. For me this thread has retired. I always get silly when sleepy. Thus the reason a cavern dweller stands out like a sore thumb, toe, whatever.


Ho-HO! Clever attempt to explain the dancing bahro, but it is all for naught! For as any great student of canon knows, the bahro would not be dancing! Why? Because every member of Atrus's family except for Atrus is EVIL! The bahro would know this! Your attempts to explain the dancing bahro age fail! And you haven't explained the breathing in space.

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:55 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
The upper crust? What, is there a fan class system? Are the poor people who just want new ages to play in being oppressed by the wealthy elite who just want to see the same old thing over and over again?

Honestly, yes. You see this in the reaction to the DRC Liaisons who were powerless individuals. You see it in the countless community squabbles. When a small segment of the fanbase is given power (either real or perceived) either over the community as a whole or over a piece of it (CCN and TCT, for example) you end up with people jealous at those in power and nitpicking otherwise good people apart, and you see at least a few who abuse their power. With tiers come voting on people to fill those tiers (or worse, no voting) and votingo n how to vote, etc. It's nothing about tyranny or oppression. I don't doubt people in these positions think they're doing everything right (and I still think the Liaisons were ripped apart unnecessarily). But the community's culture demands people either have an equal share of power or no power, and the age of the fans having no power has ended.

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You're talking like Thomas Paine, which is fine if you're an oppressed colony being taxed by a tyrannical overseas power without representation, but it's needlessly combative when you're a player in a community in a game run by a company that has ALWAYS listened to its community.

I think you would find quote a large number of people who think Cyan has only recently started listening to the community. Certainly back in 2007 they were very hesitant to accept help. Still now I hear no calls for the talented programmers here to help get OS Uru running and I wish they would both for the selfish desire to see OS Uru ASAP, but also for Cyan's sake since Cyan would have fewer demands on their time. Cyan must make a profit and anything we do to help them spend more time doing so while also furthering our own goals is a win-win.

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I think the problem might be you don't know how good you have it. And I know that's an old and crotchety thing to say, but seriously you don't. Do you have any idea how many companies have the vision and storytelling drive of Cyan? How many have actually done their best to work with their community, getting them involved? How many would actually release their game for free mostly just to keep the community alive? Cyan is really one of a kind, and I think they deserve a little more credit than you're giving them. And I know the community deserves a lot more credit.

Yes, that is an old and crotchety thing to say. Yes, I'm fully aware that Cyan is pretty much one of a kind (I think Tale of Tales is another excellent game designer with similar qualities). The developers who rely on player violence, inventories, and economies are just trodding the same well-worn road. I somewhat ignore Cyan's unique features in this case because I know we can and they can do better.

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The fact that you don't seem to have a problem with an age with dancing bahro and breathing in space would seem to confirm that.

Oh I have a problem with it. I just don't feel the desire to impose that issue on others. If someone enjoys that Age, more power to them. If I link to an Age like that, I'd just leave and never come back.

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Cyan went to all the trouble of setting up five guilds! Maybe that's not the best structure, but if nothing else it proves that Cyan wants the community to be more involved in Uru. Instead of trying to make believe there's an elite upper crust trying to crush your hopes and dreams, why don't you actually try working with Cyan?

This must be the first time you've seen the words "upper crust" since you've latched onto it quicker than a dog to the postman's posterior. If you've been paying attention, you'll notice I am encouraging fans to work with Cyan, encouraging Cyan to work with us. I love the idea that Cyan is working with Paradox and others to make a KI-chat interface and I want to see more of that.

If we have to have a community vote, I want to see one tier, everyone, which does all the approving and sending to Cyan. Not just a chosen few to act as editors for all. We rise or fall as one.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:00 pm 
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OK - I get it that we are talking, mostly, about the Cyan run server, the Cyan run shard. If we get open source Uru, then there will be multiple servers, multiple shards. I can imagine lively debates on what is the "real" Uru, but all the servers, all the Urus will be real.

The discussion seems to be between letting all fan ages get onto the Cyan run server, having some rather strict controls, under the direction of Cyan, or having looser controls under the direction of Cyan, ie. the age doesn't break. It's hard for me to see how Cyan would get the resources for strict controls -- they don't have a real good track record on this sort of thing. I can't even see them being able to add fan ages, without some modifications to their code. We don't even know if there will be any fan ages on the Cyan server. I do see some problems with volunteers approving or recommending ages to be added to the Cyan server, particularly if you consider that to be the "official" server. You'd have unpaid volunteers doing the work of a game company. That's different from testing something to find bugs or having volunteer forum moderators. All I can say is "good luck on that!". That's a recipe for, shall we say, politely, dissension. Either Cyan drums up resources to review ages or all the ages go up, though you can have unpaid volunteers bug test the ages.

On what I want -- I want a world where I can have the most interesting playing experience. To me, there's an acceptable "in character" explanation of the new ages -- explorers learning to write linking books. If we get the alternate reality thing going on, we could even have different linking books illustrating the same concept. I like that. Whether this means the goodness for ms is a Cyan server or another server, I'd like to go to where I can have the most interesting and enjoyable experience.

On the story that was in the events, the live plays in Uru that a few got to see -- what's interesting is that you don't see it in current day Uru. It's as if it never happened, since I never see it in game. I don't care about Cyan adding story unless they age new content, and the story is in the content. The live events did nothing for me -- too crowded, too hard to get to, and I can't see the story from the live events in our current Uru. But, that's an aside.

There's is a lot to be said for having a server around that has only Cyan stuff. That could be a players one and only server, or a server they go to some of the time.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Bowing back into the conversation :D Received your PM, Whil, thanks for explaining, guess I did misunderstand after all. Sorry about that! I will amend my previous post.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
I somewhat ignore Cyan's unique features in this case because I know we can and they can do better.


Did you know that "The Dark Knight," arguably one of the better movies to come out in recent memory, has a Rifftrax? That's right, the minds behind MST3K sat down and mocked "The Dark Knight", which again is one of the arguably better movies in recent memory.

Why do I bring this up? Because one of the better movies of recent memory had a lot of room for improvement. And I guarantee you that none of the Rifftrax guys could have made it half as good.

So you go ahead and ignore Cyan's unique features so you can complain about how any sort of oversight for them can never work. I really think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because your perspective is so wildly different than my own. You seem to think that any attempt to have a Cyan run server, and any sort of hierarchy in age design beyond pure anarchy with every person being their own editor and no one else having any say, will only end in tears. And I, well... I'm just wondering if any community has ever successfully used your method to make anything that works as a coherent game.

On the other hand, most of my ideas I got from running and writing for shared RPG campaigns, and looking at the way MMOs have worked in the past, and how fan communities tend to behave. Did they create a perfect game? Never. So far as I am aware there has never been a perfect game, not even Psychonauts (though they came close.) Throw in an online community and MMO setting and there has definitely never been a perfect game. But there have been some good, entertaining games, and given the resources Cyan has at their disposal this is how I think you should make them.

Oh, an as for the group of fans that whines every time any of them are given power? The ones who are only happy if THEY are the ones who get power? Ignore them. The moment you listen to them you are doomed. I've seen that happen far too many times to count.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:10 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
So you go ahead and ignore Cyan's unique features so you can complain about how any sort of oversight for them can never work. I really think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because your perspective is so wildly different than my own. You seem to think that any attempt to have a Cyan run server, and any sort of hierarchy in age design beyond pure anarchy with every person being their own editor and no one else having any say, will only end in tears. And I, well... I'm just wondering if any community has ever successfully used your method to make anything that works as a coherent game.

In some areas I think we're closer than you think. Cyan has a server and I think that's fine. I would love nothing more than to have a system that lets Cyan work with fans, etc. All that's great and if it can be pulled off, I'll be more than happy to participate.

What I don't want is Cyan wasting their time approving Ages for us and I also don't want this proposed fan approval system to be exclusive. Since this does seem to get lost in all this chatter, I am referring purely to Cyan's server. Even on Cyan's server I want as many people involved in any approval process as possible. Can we agree on that?

I'm not saying everything ends in tears. I'm saying Cyan needs to maintain an open environment on their shard so people are encouraged to make Ages. You harm that environment if you give a small segment of the community power over the rest.

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Oh, an as for the group of fans that whines every time any of them are given power? The ones who are only happy if THEY are the ones who get power? Ignore them. The moment you listen to them you are doomed. I've seen that happen far too many times to count.

And what if that group includes you? What if a group of people get power who are opposed to what you want to see? We should ignore you? I don't think that works. You end up alienating people and shrinking your fanbase.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:21 pm 
DocOlanA wrote:
Well if that's all you want, to be able to play around while Cyan becomes profitable again, great.


"Play around"?

You just really are not going to listen to what anyone is actually saying, are you?

I'm envisaging this system of yours, where everyone ("the community at large") gets to see every fan Age in its design stages. And I'm reminded of that line of Thomas Love Peacock's, where the landscape gardener is boasting about his designs, and especially "the quality of unexpectedness" he includes in them, and someone says "Pray what do you call this quality, when someone walks around the garden for the second time?" Nobody who vets a fan Age will be able to come to that Age fresh. The more people we have vetting, the fewer people will bother to visit the Ages when they're released. The fewer people we have vetting, the more Whilyam and his friends will cry elitism. The only solution I can see is to leave the vetting to shard admins and (on their own shard) to Cyan.

It seems to me that you'll never be satisfied till Cyan is making Ages again, and that's a pity. But from what I can see, all your suggestions end up spoiling whatever we will have in the interim for somebody, and some of them seem likely to spoil it for everybody. I don't agree with much of what Whilyam has said, but I think, with respect, that you're wrong about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Okay, you got me there, I over-simplified. But any time you allow some fans to be elevated (and this happened when Nick White gave the SoDK the Yahvo creation myth, it happened when they allowed an explorer to go with Sharper to Negilahn, it happened every time any explorer was given anything by plot,) other plans are going to complain because it's not fair. They might not say that's why they're complaining, but that's why they're complaining. The normal response of a company upon seeing this is to panic that they are upsetting the fanbase, and stop doing awesome things for individual players. Either every player gets to do it, or nobody gets to do it.

Horrible mistake, every single time I've seen it made. It results in a dull experience where you get the feeling of being just another cog in the wheel. So what do you have to do? You have to ignore the whiners. You simply have to. And will people complain about it? Yes. Will they leave? Yes. But if you cave in to their demands and make everyone the same, then slowly people realize that they have no stake in the story, no stake in the game, and they drift away. It's amazing, actually. People who never do anything special, and who never stick their neck out, and so will almost certainly never be one of the special people still get excited over the IDEA that one day it could be them. It's the idea that explorers are changing the world they are in.

Now, I understand that's probably one of the things you think you are doing with your idea to allow fan ages with no oversight onto the Cyan server. But ultimately, you're not. That's just an enhanced version of "everyone can do it." I guarantee you that the end result will be in ages not being special. There will be no drive to complete every age, no desire to play the whole game, because most of the ages will be crap. And that seems not to bother you. Great, that's the sort of player you are. It would bother me. Because I'm not whining about fairness here, but I am concerned with canon. The story. I didn't play Uru because I wanted a puzzle game. There are lots of great puzzle games out there. I played Uru because ever since Myst, and Riven especially, I have been absolutely swept up in the world of the D'ni. And while I think there are many, many fans who could enhance that world, make it better, and expand it, there are also many fans that will only degrade it with their sub-par creations.

That's just the truth. Again, look at fanfiction.net for an example of a system where anyone can post whatever they want. Making an age is a little harder than writing a fanfic, so it might not be THAT bad, but it'll be pretty close. There has to be quality control. There simply has to be, or else we'll be wading through countless horrible ages to find the good ones (and again, as fanfiction.net teaches us, even rating systems don't work to weed out the bad ages.)

So, we have to have quality control at some point. Do we have a fan-elected quality control body? That seems like it will solve almost nothing, while causing all the problems you foresee. The only real option is to have a Cyan appointed body, either made up of Cyan itself or of their designated fans.

Now, is that completely fair? No. Completely fair games are horribly lame. Uru has never been fair. Some people are online when NPCs with plot link in, some people aren't. That's the way it goes. It's very much like *gasp* real life! Incidentally, the last time Cyan listened to the "that's not fair" argument we got Episodes. One of the very few things I'm quite unhappy with them for.

Now, your last charge was that we'd alienate people and shrink the fanbase. Well, we would alienate people, yes. We'd alienate people who feel that they should be the special ones chosen without putting the work into it. We'd alienate people who would cry "that's not fair." And, lest you think I'm dismissing them, that is a non-trivial group of fans in any game. I think most of those people would just complain a lot but keep playing, but some certainly would leave. But would it shrink the fanbase?

Perhaps at first, as the whiners left. But having a game where the players can actually change things? Where they can create ages and have them included, not because they'll let any old hack-job in, but because it's actually going to be canon in the Myst universe? A game where once plots start up again they can be a vital part of that plot? I don't know of any other MMO online that does that. I don't know of any other MMO that even approaches that level of awesome. And I think you'd see that after the initial fanbase dip as the whiners left, the fanbase would grow steadily as people looking for a truly unique, immersive gaming experience where they matter as a person, not just as a bunch of zeros and ones, join up.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:33 pm 
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zander_nyrond wrote:
DocOlanA wrote:
Well if that's all you want, to be able to play around while Cyan becomes profitable again, great.


"Play around"?

You just really are not going to listen to what anyone is actually saying, are you?

I'm envisaging this system of yours, where everyone ("the community at large") gets to see every fan Age in its design stages. And I'm reminded of that line of Thomas Love Peacock's, where the landscape gardener is boasting about his designs, and especially "the quality of unexpectedness" he includes in them, and someone says "Pray what do you call this quality, when someone walks around the garden for the second time?" Nobody who vets a fan Age will be able to come to that Age fresh. The more people we have vetting, the fewer people will bother to visit the Ages when they're released. The fewer people we have vetting, the more Whilyam and his friends will cry elitism. The only solution I can see is to leave the vetting to shard admins and (on their own shard) to Cyan.

It seems to me that you'll never be satisfied till Cyan is making Ages again, and that's a pity. But from what I can see, all your suggestions end up spoiling whatever we will have in the interim for somebody, and some of them seem likely to spoil it for everybody. I don't agree with much of what Whilyam has said, but I think, with respect, that you're wrong about this.


I'm sorry, and what is your system? To do exactly the same thing, but not to have any level above that? I mean, that's basically what you're talking about, right? Letting fans just put their ages out there? So... all the fans can play them? You were arguing for some variant of that, right?

But hey, if you honestly think that they shouldn't be released to the fanbase at large first, released maybe to a smaller, beta crowd. But there's no perfect system. There's problems with every system. My system has, as a priority, NOT having Cyan only release ages (I don't know where you got that idea, since I've specifically been talking about fan ages, you might want to re-read what I've been saying,) but rather setting up a system that makes it as easy as possible for Cyan to officially approve fan ages. That's honestly my biggest priority. The one thing I'll agree with Whil on is that we need fan ages for Uru to survive. I also happen to think that if it's not canon, it's not Uru.

So, to have an Uru that survives we need canon fan ages. That requires Cyan involvement. But if we streamline it, using the method I describe (or another proposed method, I'm not picky,) we can make Cyan's necessary effort (and thus cost) minimal.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:22 am 
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There's a line in one episode of Doctor Who which pretty much sums up what you're saying about Cyan including a few fans.

The Doctor: "So, you find a breach, probe it, the sphere comes through, 600 feet above London, BAM! It leaves a hole in the fabric of reality. And that hole, you think: "Should we leave it alone, should we back off, should we play it safe?" NAH, you think: "Let's make it BIGGER!"" video for the full effect

So, Cyan comes up with this idea, tries it, people hate it. BAM! It leaves a hole in your fanbase. And that hole, you think: "Should we leave it alone, should we back off, should we play it safe?" NAH, you think: "Let's make it BIGGER!"

Now, that's not to say that I think that we can magically make it so there are no whiners, but that doesn't mean we go into reverse and give a dozen (less? You haven't specified how many Kanon Kings there would be) fans near absolute control over one of the most desired resources in any community, official recognition by the creators of the canon. You're suggesting we take a group of people and give them the most powerful position in the community as those who decide whether an Age is accepted as a canon Age and you don't see the massive problem with this?

Has your doctor checked you for cataracts?

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Last edited by Whilyam on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:15 am 
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Having had some experience with this sort of thing, not just from my time here -- volunteer experiences, volunteer roles, and how it's handled -- it's really different from a job where someone works for the company. I'm a little leary in having volunteers pick ages (debug them yes) to include in a Cyan shard. I think that would be difficult to manage, and there would be concerns on the part of the community. I don't think Cyan could give that sort of thing the committment it would require, to make it work.

Remembering the issues with the liason process, I think that was a Cyan problem, not a problem on the part of the community. If you decide to have liasons then it behooves you to figure out the process, manage it, and address any fan concerns, in a timely fashion, and not just once. You'd have to address fan concerns many. That didn't happen with the liason process, and Cyan had more people then. So, learning from the experience of how Cyan works, I don't think that managing the process of having volunteers pick ages -- somehow I don't think managing this is where they want to commit their resources. That would be a full time job, and would, in my opinion, require a dedicated person, right in front of the community, to make it work. I don't see that happening.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:16 am 
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I like the idea of Age rating systems. Let's have lots of them.

I like the idea of canon. Let's have lots of them. (I mean, lots *more* of them -- Cyan has given us at least three contradictory Myst canons already. Four? Hardly worth counting.)

I read this discussion with a mixture of amusement and a migraine, because we're years past the point where any one group decides what is canon. We're all deciding what is canon, constantly, and we don't all come to the same conclusions. Remember my posts of the past few days, about when Myst 5 takes place, about Esher's accent? I said one thing, some other people disagreed, a few variant opinions appeared. *It wasn't a big thing.* It was perfectly cheerful and friendly. The canon holy war is over, folks, and the only people who showed up brought picnic baskets.

(No, I didn't make those posts as a deliberate foundation for this one. Would have been clever if I had, though. :)

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