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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:57 am 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Assuming that the DRC comes back (and that is an assumption, I know,) they'll have control more or less of the cavern and the Nexus. While they allow Yeesha's instanced ages to be traded via the Nexus and invites, those are all ages that, on some level, they have either approved or realized that they can't get rid of. While you are right, and people could just trade linking books, where would you keep them?

Perhaps it would be best to make some sort of object for your Relto, a book vault, or perhaps a personal Nexus machine not tied into Laxman's network (and thus out of DRC jurisdiction,) where you could keep non-approved ages. I just don't see how they could reasonably IC remain in the cavern or Nexus.


Aside from "giving game limitations an IC explanation," it is not reasonable to think that the DRC could ever control the free trade of linking books among explorers, or even to believe they could stop explorers from deliberately leaving books in various public places. This, too, was used as a plot point during Prologue - Bahro linking stones and Journey cloths would appear in places the DRC did not want them to be, and the DRC would try to remove the items, only to discover that replacements would re-appear in the same locations.

The Nexus theoretically should be explorer-proof, but it has proven not to be Yeesha-proof because it somehow supports private instances. And though explorers don't have Yeesha Magic, I'm inclined to think if Yeesha has paved the way to do something, there's probably a way some enterprising explorer can take advantage of that.

Finally, I'll point out that "in the cavern" and "in public places" are not the same thing. Phil's Relto, for example, is a "public place" - but it's not in the cavern. And it would be an ideal place, IMHO, for the first fan Ages to appear in an environment where the DRC would really have trouble cracking down.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:07 am 
Well, yes. There are loads of books on his shelf that have never been identified. Just raise a tab.

And where do you keep books when your shelves are full? Just ask any fan. The answer is "anywhere." Stairs, tables, kitchen work surfaces, the loo. Piles on the floor, probably, in Relto.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:15 am 
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Let it be known that the DRC has /also/ said that they do *not* "own the cavern". They've come right out and said it, "we do not own the cavern" Repeat after me, "The DRC does not own the cavern." it is NOT private property. and IF it was, it would be Jeff Zandi that owns the land, not the DRC. The DRC does NOT control us, does NOT control the cavern.

If Uru Was Real(tm):

We would be doing things in the Guild Hall, right now.

We would have set "shop" up in buildings in Ae'gura.

We would be entering the DRC's offices in Takotah.

We may've even take residence in them.

We would've taken down most, if not /all/, of the barriers.

We would be able to get to City Proper.

We would probably even be running ferries there.

We would be exploring many more neighbourhoods, and districts. And they would be different, not just copies of Bevin and Seret.

We would be finding new ages all the time.

We would be exploring them, too. DRC or no DRC.

EDIT: oh, another fun one.

We would be able to pick up a firemarble from a neighbourhood, and take it to Gira. Where we would proceed to scald ourselves in the steam vents, and then use the firemarble to light our way.

Make that two fun ones.

We would go to Gahreesen, and promptly break many bones, jumping to the bahro door, if not killing ourselves.

EDIT2: and thanks to my fiance, here's another one...

We would be in terrible trouble, too... Because we /still/ can't find the toilets. Or any source of food, either.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:43 pm 
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I think Cyan's shard should be open to everything except that which is illegal and that which (as I've said elsewhere) "crashes a user who meets the system requirements."

I think fans should then have the freedom to have their own shards that filter that central content into different areas (canon, free-range, flying around as a Bahro, etc.).

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:18 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
I think fans should then have the freedom to have their own shards that filter that central content into different areas (canon, free-range, flying around as a Bahro, etc.).

That makes sense if you're talking about a Cyan-run Age repository, but not about an actual "playable" version of the Uruverse. We cannot rely on a fan-run shard that picks what's canon, because we'll end up with more than one shard that tries to do that, which will lead to who knows how many different "canons". Which means no canon at all. :-)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:40 pm 
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If Cyan can change their mind on what's canon, so can the fans. The Myst trap books were voids until Revelation. If Cyan really is the only one who can pick canon, then multiple canons don't matter because none are canon until Cyan would declare them so.

However, I still prefer an Uru where people are free to choose their own content and choose what they see as canon. For example, Tweek's Cass is canon for me. A D'ni survivor or an explorer with knowledge of D'ni vandalized the Age. If Cyan says a D'ni didn't do that, then it must have been an explorer. I move on. Similarly, when I run across an Age I don't like, it's not canon for me and I don't go back. These are preferences which I move fluidly from as I evaluate my own personal canon.

Cyan is a major influence, but it has its limits. For example, if Cyan said that the Gahreesen jumps are canon, I would no accept that as canon in my view unless Cyan had an explanation validated by something in the Age (anti-gravity pads or some such nonsense). Just like most people would ignore a declaration that the Gira puzzle is canon since it's common sense that anyone could take a flashlight into the cave.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Random thought only partially related to this: Cyan always said they would open the code, but have been way more reluctant (with good cause) to open up the content, even just the global assets. This to say that yes, everyone with a server will be able to run their MOUL-compatible levels, but only those with an FCAL will legally be able to be called Ages and to be connected to D'ni, the Cavern and all the rest. I'm actually unsure if an Age without FCAL would even be allowed to use a linking book and/or the global assets.

Also, servers that can use/extend MOUL content will probably have to sign some agreement and/or use Cyan's auth server, as it was back in UU. This can be hardcoded into the client, since Cyan has no obligation to open *all* the client/server code - they might keep some parts closed to keep control over their assets.

I think this would shift the issue of canonicity from the open source part (and thus from the shard maintainers) to the fan content/licensing part, with approved Ages being automatically canon or, at least "not non-canon". The server admins would then just have to worry about stability and performance, and ignore completely whether a fan Age is canon or not. If someone wants to make the Age of the dancing singing Bahros that will be fine - you just won't find the link in Ae'gura.

(note that most of this is me thinking out loud, what Cyan has actually in mind might be completely different)

Whilyam wrote:
Just like most people would ignore a declaration that the Gira puzzle is canon since it's common sense that anyone could take a flashlight into the cave.


My own personal explanation is that something in Gira (either natural or a Yeesha trick) turns off any source of light but the fireflies and the steam lamps. So I do have a flashlight, it just won't work there.

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Last edited by Ian Atrus on Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
The Myst trap books were voids until Revelation.

This is a nitpick, and does not detract from your overall point, but the above statement is factually incorrect. RAWA had stated Sirrus and Achenar linked to prison ages, not voids, years and years ago.

Journey with me back to the year 2000... we'll party like it's 1999...
http://web.archive.org/web/200010182200 ... stFrequent
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Q. Does Atrus really kill his own sons, Sirrus and Achenar?
A. No. Atrus simply destroys the linking books to the prison ages that Sirrus and Achenar are trapped in. By destroying the books, Atrus does not destroy the age itself, just the link to it. Sirrus and Achenar are still alive in the prison age, although now it is impossible to get to those ages where they are trapped.


Also note that the distinction between "descriptive book" and "linking book" had already been established at this time.
http://web.archive.org/web/200008180419 ... ni/Writing

Summary: Revelation is less of a retcon than you thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:51 pm 
Ian Atrus wrote:
My own personal explanation is that something in Gira (either natural or a Yeesha trick) turns off any source of light but the fireflies and the steam lamps. So I do have a flashlight, it just won't work there.


Back in the days of UU, I did take another light source into the caves in Gira (/lite). It worked fine...but the lamp wouldn't light, and the Cloth wouldn't click. I assumed that the point of that part of the Journey was specifically to get the fireflies there, so unless you did it the "proper" way, you couldn't complete the Age. Typical, I thought, and went back to kicking baskets.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Doc,

Once again the simple escapes you. Here's an example....

I meet Tweek in the UO hood. He tells me there is a new age that allows you to visit some of the new ages explorers have found, or possibly written! We link to his relto and he lets me use his version of the book.

Now, I only get one new book that takes me to a library type age, or a nexus type age (Cyan or fan made). This location has tons of linking books to other ages.

OK so we got that far. Now explain to me how the DRC could possibly remove this age from my book shelf or the links to the new ages from that age. Keep in mind, they have to deal with thousands of explorers who are in the cavern.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:16 pm 
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BAD wrote:
Here's an example....

I meet Tweek in the UO hood. He tells me there is a new age that allows you to visit some of the new ages explorers have found, or possibly written! We link to his relto and he lets me use his version of the book.

Now, I only get one new book that takes me to a library type age, or a nexus type age (Cyan or fan made). This location has tons of linking books to other ages.

OK so we got that far. Now explain to me how the DRC could possibly remove this age from my book shelf or the links to the new ages from that age. Keep in mind, they have to deal with thousands of explorers who are in the cavern.


BAD, your rebuttal would be more successful if you weren't jousting against a straw man. Doc did not (at least, in the last page of discussion) exclude your example as a possibility. He specifically said:
DocOlanA wrote:
Perhaps it would be best to make some sort of object for your Relto, a book vault, or perhaps a personal Nexus machine not tied into Laxman's network (and thus out of DRC jurisdiction,) where you could keep non-approved ages. I just don't see how they could reasonably IC remain in the cavern or Nexus.


I am not going to go back through the whole thread to verify that there are no contradictions between the above quote and earlier ones, I'm just going to go with what Doc said most recently, and what I see does not conflict with the Relto example. At all.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:52 pm 
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Ah yes, I think I miss read his last post there.

OK ignore my previous post. Nothing to see here.... Move along.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:10 pm 
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It's okay BAD. Again, I'm not against fan ages by any stretch of the imagination. Even in the GT days I've been part of the crowd pushing for Cyan to allow fan content. I'm not even against fan ages being included in the game. But my primary concern is to keep everything IC. Explanations need to be made, and not just hand-waving comic book style ones (of COURSE! Don't you know anything about SCIENCE?) but actual explanations that make sense given what has already been established in Uru. Do that for me, and I'm all for it. New nexus-style age you link to via your Relto using a different system than Laxman's lattice? Perfect, that is a great explanation, have fun.

I do still think fan ages on the main Cyan server should have to be approved, just because it's quite possible to code things into a computer game that it's impossible to write, but I do want Cyan to approve as many fan ages as possible (even if it's just a "yeah, nothing violates canon here" rubberstamp process.) And those ages, especially if written by explorers, would not have to necessarily hold to D'ni tradition or DRC safety standards, so long as they didn't violate any of the hard rules of non-Yeesha writing.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Well any fan age that Cyan would even consider supporting has to be checked by the Guild of Maintainers. So there's not a risk of bad ages getting through as proper content.

Of course, somebody could create an Uru: Non Canon server where ages exist where chickens fall from the sky instead of rain and awesome face posters are everywhere. They'd be funny - and a good way of testing age-writing skills - but not intended for Mr or Mrs Immersion.

What I'm worried about is a drop in art quality (or more accurately the polish quality) - bad shaders, lighting, textures... I'd really hate to link into an age where it was obviously still heavily a work in progress.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Why should they be approved by the maintainers? Some of the ages by high-ranking maintainers are more broken that the average age. As in, crashes Uru, for multiple people.

Why should it /have/ to be approved by the maintainers?

Approved by the shard owner (in this case, Cyan Worlds, Inc), sure, but, a random fan-run group having absolute power over what even gets looked at? Power corrupts... Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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