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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:26 pm 
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You're assuming absolute power is what they'd have. I'm sure a checks and balance system can be put in place like any other governing system.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:31 pm 
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Not to mention that the idea that absolute power corrupts absolutely has never been supported historically. It's a storyteller's contrivance to set up the underdog hero, and to justify those who supported a monarch's rise to power later turning against him.

But that's not important. I seriously doubt that any council will have absolute power. Indeed, in my opinion while there should be an approving organization, I think it should be appointed by Cyan itself, and its sole purpose should be to assure certain standards of quality and compliance with canon. That's my opinion, at least.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:07 am 
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Neereus wrote:
You're assuming absolute power is what they'd have. I'm sure a checks and balance system can be put in place like any other governing system.


I can't see any group having any control over open source. There is simply no one who can control things. Cyan may write something into the license. I expect that to be of the nature of: If you use Cyan content (ages) then you must A)... B)... C)... and you may not I)... II)... III)... etc. Outside of those limits I expect it to be wide open.

GoW, GoMa, and other groups will likely run servers for their purposes and add ages that fit with those purposes. Who can tell them to do otherwise?

Consider that the Sever and Client Software and the Tools will be under one license and the content under another. I suppose one could use the software and tools to build a totally unrelated game, non-Uru. They could do whatever they chose. The game could likely be compatible with any of the Uru clients. So, one could log into a completely wild shard, if they chose. The Purple People Eating Purple People Avatars Shard... dedicated to perverse pancakes...

Others will run whatever ages with their servers that they choose. Theoretically, one could omit any Can ages and run only fan created content and not be bound by the coming Cyan Content license. The game would then be more of a Myst style spin off than another copy of Uru. We see some of that now with builds like Devokan. People can do whatever does not violate rights and any agreements they have made.

I believe Whilyam's point of having things so what is legal and actually works can be included in the servers is the most likely RL scenario. The community is creative enough to wrap IC story around anything. Whether they want to is another matter.

Everyone is free to chose how they will play. If you have read Tweek's old thread on IC and OOC play in Uru you can see was it thought IC and OOC play in Uru could co-exist. I believe it has and can.

The only sticking points are when someone tries to control things and impose their preferences on others.

When one reads the discussions where shard operators and programmers and modelers are talking, it is common to see concern for both IC and OOC players and concern for canon (mostly at GoW, GoMa, and OpenUru.org). I think it is obvious in those threads that most of the people that will do the actual work of building, running, and hosting the shards realize that open source will give fans lots of freedom and there is little if anyway, beyond the Cyan license, to control what is happen in the open source era.

Crux Isle in Second Life has a FCAL... it has a spin off Myst style story and uses references to the D'ni... It is not one of the Uru imitations. Crux may be a good clue as to what is acceptable to Cyan and foreshadow things to come. It has inspired others to start thinking along those lines and considering FCAL's for their current projects.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:31 am 
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My response was not to anything open source, but to the process of approving fan ages that will be on Cyan's servers. What others do on their own servers is beyond control of course. But if Cyan has intentions of putting fan ages on the "official" server then they more then likely want to have some quality control. This of course is beyond their own means currently, so to have "the guilds" do so is a practical way. This is where my checks and balance statement came in. Since people fear that a small group of fans will have all dominating power, this can be dealt with by not allowing anyone group to have all power.

Cyan of course would have to be the final say and moderator of the guilds for this to work, but it does delegate things to be done to fans to share the burden. So it'd be easier on them in the current circumstances.

And of course, this is all just opinion. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:45 am 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Not to mention that the idea that absolute power corrupts absolutely has never been supported historically. It's a storyteller's contrivance...


While there are such contrivances, such as the one that says "people don't see anything strange because their brains can't handle it," this is not one of them. Lord Acton was a real person, and not involved in trying to overthrow any monarch or government. That power corrupts is observably true, unless you take the view that everyone is corrupt to start with. That it corrupts absolutely or without exception I regard as not proven.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:31 am 
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Nye_Sigismund wrote:
Well any fan age that Cyan would even consider supporting has to be checked by the Guild of Maintainers. So there's not a risk of bad ages getting through as proper content.

Just so this thread doesn't get derailed by any over-reactions...

The Guild of Maintainers is not now, nor has it ever been, in charge of "approving" fan Ages. A while back Cyan asked the Guild of Maintainers, Guild of Writers, and Guild of Archivists to come up with a process for approving Fan Created Art Licenses (FCAL), but it never materialized.

Whether Cyan still wants to go that direction, I don't know. We do not have the repsonsibility of approving anything. We voluntarily inspect Ages for bugs because it fits from an IC perspective and we like doing it. Our only goal is to give Age creators several more pairs of eyes (if they want them) to find bugs they might have over-looked.

kaelisebonrai wrote:
Some of the ages by high-ranking maintainers are more broken that the average age. As in, crashes Uru, for multiple people.

Our, or should I say their (I've never created an Age myself), inability to create bug free Ages in no way limits our abilities of finding bugs in other Ages. If anything, it gives us more practice :wink:

EDIT: We do, of course, look forward to working with Cyan and the community on MOULagain, OSMO, MORE, etc. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:52 am 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
That power corrupts is observably true, unless you take the view that everyone is corrupt to start with. That it corrupts absolutely or without exception I regard as not proven.


Yeah, see that last sentence? That's what makes it a storyteller's contrivance. Power gives a license that allows those with corrupt tendencies to exercise those tendencies with little restraint. Societal restrictions are not the only cause of morality, but they do often force the immoral to behave morally, thus making it appear as if power has corrupted them when those restrictions are lifted, and the true nature of a person is revealed.

Wow, it's really easy to get me off on a tangent, isn't it? Um...

Yeah. The current GoM, while having been started by Cyan (via the DRC,) is open for anyone to join, and has no official duties, nor is it likely that they will. But there will need to be some sort of approval board for the main Cyan server, I think.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:42 am 
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Frisky Badger wrote:
Nye_Sigismund wrote:
Well any fan age that Cyan would even consider supporting has to be checked by the Guild of Maintainers. So there's not a risk of bad ages getting through as proper content.

Just so this thread doesn't get derailed by any over-reactions...

The Guild of Maintainers is not now, nor has it ever been, in charge of "approving" fan Ages. A while back Cyan asked the Guild of Maintainers, Guild of Writers, and Guild of Archivists to come up with a process for approving Fan Created Art Licenses (FCAL), but it never materialized.

Whether Cyan still wants to go that direction, I don't know. We do not have the repsonsibility of approving anything. We voluntarily inspect Ages for bugs because it fits from an IC perspective and we like doing it. Our only goal is to give Age creators several more pairs of eyes (if they want them) to find bugs they might have over-looked.


Right-o, that makes sense. Sorry for getting confused. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:27 am 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
That power corrupts is observably true, unless you take the view that everyone is corrupt to start with. That it corrupts absolutely or without exception I regard as not proven.


Yeah, see that last sentence? That's what makes it a storyteller's contrivance.


Um, last word on the tangent honest guv, but it's not a storyteller's contrivance. It is a statement made about the real world by a real person who knew whereof he spoke. Just because we do not agree with something, that does not render it fictitious or negligible. "Unproven" does not mean "untrue." Or "irrelevant."

Back on topic: No group, whether appointed by Cyan, by community election, or by the time-honoured method of ip dip dip my little ship, will have any power unless by common consent, because no-one, including Cyan, has the coercive ability to enforce such power. It's been made clear that there are explorers and Writers in the community who will not consent to be subjected to the approval of any such group. We can say what we want till we're blue in the face, but that won't make it happen. All it will achieve, at most, is the (further) fragmentation of the community. Which wouldn't be the end of our little world, but would impoverish it to a degree.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:35 am 
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Quite frankly, as long as Cyan controls the code for their server... yes, actually, they can say exactly who gets to publish ages, or do anything else.

Really, this idea that players can somehow do whatever they want and Cyan can't do anything about it is just... I mean, it's a little silly. You do realize that we're playing a game Cyan made, right? And that even after it goes OS, Cyan will still have control over their shard, and quite possibly the core code in all shards? So, when you say that Cyan can't do anything to control content... you do realize that there's no truth at all in that, right? Because literally they will be the ones in control, at least of their own shard and likely the core code of all the others.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:21 am 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Quite frankly, as long as Cyan controls the code for their server... yes, actually, they can say exactly who gets to publish ages, or do anything else.

In case you haven't noticed, people don't need newspapers or television to speak to large numbers of people anymore. This is little different.

Cyan can control their corner of the internet. If better content is found elsewhere because they refuse to carry it, people will go elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:31 am 
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Ah, I'm sorry, I was unaware that the internet had so many copies of Uru run by "the people" and running without restriction. My bad.

Could you post a few links? That actually sounds interesting. Any?

Right. Stop pretending this is a marketing issue. Cyan has never treated their fanbase poorly. Indeed, they're remarkably encouraging of fans to form their own community within the cavern. They're moving toward open source so that fans can have even more community and control.

That is not the same thing as Cyan being absolutely helpless to stop whatever the fans decide. And threatening to leave if they don't? That's just silly.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:43 am 
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Cyan can indeed control what Ages go on their server, in the somewhat limited binary sense of allowing them or not allowing them. Till they have more spoons, I don't know that they can do anything else. They can also withhold open source Uru indefinitely or till we stop bickering. (I don't say that's what they're doing, but you can bet they're listening in, and hopefully finding it at least amusing.) That, unless somebody knows something technical that I don't, is the limit of their control. Once somebody is running a fan server (or ten, or a hundred, or a thousand), I don't see how Cyan can exert any actual control over what goes on that server. And I don't believe they want to.

We really are going round and round on this. You want Cyan to have absolute control, over their server at very least, or perhaps ideally over all servers running what you call Uru. (I know you're happy for there to be fan-run servers doing what they want as long as they don't call it Uru. But they will, you know. They will.) You want everything that calls itself Uru to be absolutely synchronised to an ideal canon which (as Whilyam has pointed out, though I'm not sure I agree entirely with his reasoning) doesn't necessarily exist, and which many in the community don't want or don't care about.

What I want is for people to agree spontaneously and of their own free wills to follow RAWA's five guidelines and not muck up the backstory (except possibly to the point of retconning the stupid bahro war), but I know they won't, because I've read their posts on this forum and taken them in. And I don't think we're so rich in creative talent that we can afford to drive even one good Writer away because his bahro don't match the drapes. As far as I'm concerned, if it's set in the D'niverse and online it's Uru, and any canon problems I'll find a workaround in my own head.

I think it's safe to say this. Neither of us will get all of what we want, but I think I'm going to end up being happier with what we do get than you are. So it's up to you. You know what the man said: if you can't get the Uru you want, want the Uru you get. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:50 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
So, when you say that Cyan can't do anything to control content... you do realize that there's no truth at all in that, right? Because literally they will be the ones in control, at least of their own shard and likely the core code of all the others.

Wrong. They can only control the content on their own shard. Once the code goes open source, they can no longer control what is done with it - that's what open source is all about. They can retain the rights over their IP (textures, characters, etc.), but no, they can't control what content is added to other shards - and I don't believe they want to.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Zander, of course the fan run servers will call themselves Uru. When Uru goes open source, that's the game they'll be using. But the Cyan shard will be official. And as much as everyone wants to cry that's not true, and that their fan shard will be just as official as the Cyan shard is... it's just not so.

The fact that you talk about people voluntarily holding to canon, and follow it up with a crack about the "stupid" bahro war, just illustrates my point exactly. I dislike the attitude that you, and Whil, and others seem to have about this. This idea that you can be in charge, which of course naturally leads to the idea that you can "fix" things. Unregulated people don't hold to canon. Anarchy doesn't work. The fan ages are going to become overrun with canon contradictions unless they put some sort of review process in for vetting ages, which is all I'm suggesting for the Cyan shard. And for all the vaunted talk about canon not existing, or canon being personal, if you have two ages saying contradictory things then it's not canon no matter which way you slice it.

People are not going to voluntarily hold themselves to RAWA's standards.

And Whil... yes, I know some people have talked to Cyan about helping and been turned away. I'm one of them. Frankly on projects that I control I often turn away help from people, not because I can't use the help, but because there's only so much I can do at a given stage. Uru is not open source yet. Far from it. Cyan does not yet have processes in place to streamline review for themselves. Give them some time.

I really hope Cyan is ignoring these threads, the anti-Cyan sentiment is just... very depressing to someone like me who wants to see his favorite game actually work this time.

Edit: Oh yes, Whil, and thank you for comparing me to Maoist China. It's nice to know you're keeping everything in perspective.

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