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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:02 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Zander, of course the fan run servers will call themselves Uru. When Uru goes open source, that's the game they'll be using. But the Cyan shard will be official. And as much as everyone wants to cry that's not true, and that their fan shard will be just as official as the Cyan shard is... it's just not so.

Sure, Cyan's shard will be official. The question is, does that matter to the people who will actually be supporting the game, not just the people who see canon as god?

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The fact that you talk about people voluntarily holding to canon, and follow it up with a crack about the "stupid" bahro war, just illustrates my point exactly. I dislike the attitude that you, and Whil, and others seem to have about this. This idea that you can be in charge, which of course naturally leads to the idea that you can "fix" things. Unregulated people don't hold to canon. Anarchy doesn't work. The fan ages are going to become overrun with canon contradictions unless they put some sort of review process in for vetting ages, which is all I'm suggesting for the Cyan shard. And for all the vaunted talk about canon not existing, or canon being personal, if you have two ages saying contradictory things then it's not canon no matter which way you slice it.

There are things that need to be fixed in Uru. If Cyan is truly serious about Open Source and allows the necessary changes to take place, Uru will be much better for it. Fixing the hole that let the memorial imager get altered and fixing the mess that is the KI, those are the "fixes" that are needed and needed badly. The Bahro war can't be "fixed" by anyone but Cyan. That doesn't mean that people won't, individually, ignore that in their personal canon.
And if different Ages say different things, people will decide for themselves what to believe. This notion that people have to be babysat as to what is canon is nonsense.

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And Whil... yes, I know some people have talked to Cyan about helping and been turned away. I'm one of them. Frankly on projects that I control I often turn away help from people, not because I can't use the help, but because there's only so much I can do at a given stage. Uru is not open source yet. Far from it. Cyan does not yet have processes in place to streamline review for themselves. Give them some time.

Cyan is going to spend more time opening the code than they would if they let the fans assist. There is no excuse. Stop trying to manufacture one.

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Edit: Oh yes, Whil, and thank you for comparing me to Maoist China. It's nice to know you're keeping everything in perspective.

Actually, you're more like Mr. Toyoda here.

Cyan is not at fault! You are at fault!

Actually, I just wanted an excuse to use that video. I compared you to modern China because that is how you acted. Besides, I think calling canon god is slightly more of a skewed sense of perspective.

It is this sort of labeling as "anti-Cyan," the "dissidents" who need to be thrown out "for the good of all," it is this paranoid nonsense that must end and will end. Uru was changed, past-tense, and this change is irreversible and a huge benefit to Cyan and to Uru. That you cannot comprehend this new reality is not my problem, it is your loss.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:46 pm 
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Doc, I am totally baffled. How are enthusiastic fans wanting to take and extend Uru, perhaps not the way Cyan had planned*, anti-Cyan? There will probably be some people who will take Uru in directions that Cyan doesn't really like. Depending on the nature of the situation, even that is not necessarily "anti-Cyan."

Perhaps it would calm some of the inflammation here, if you could either explain how you feel anything said here has been anti-Cyan, or as I would prefer, find a more appropriate word or phrase to express what you are trying to say.

And finally, please be extra-cautious about believing that how you want things to be, must be how Cyan wants things to be; Cyan may be less alarmed than you think.

To this thread in general - Fan shards will be managed as seen fit by those who run them, and Cyan will manage their shard as desire too, and people can argue all they like about how they think things should be but it's all very moot, and very tiring to my eyes. Offering up opinions is one thing; stamping one's feet and insinuating that others' opinions are somehow less valid or wrong is another.

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* "They will now also affect the restoration, perhaps not the way others had planned." -- Yeesha

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Doc, I think you may have missed something along the way.

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So, Cyan has decided to give make Myst Online available to the fans by releasing the source code for the servers, client and tools for Myst Online as an open source project. We will also host a data server with the data for Myst Online. MORE is still possible but only with the help from fans.

This is a bit scary for Cyan because this is an area that we have never gone before, to let a product freely roam in the wild. But we’ve poured so much into Uru Live, and it has touched so many, that we could not just let it whither and die. We still have hopes that someday we will be able to provide new content for Uru Live and/or work on the next Uru Live.

This is also a bit scary for the fans. We realize that this could turn Uru Live into the “wild west” and lead to many fractured and diverse Myst Online servers. But it is our hope that with the help of dedicated core fans (if you are reading this, it probably means you) that a safe and secure Myst Online server set (many servers from around the world working together as one) can be created that will let people explore and live in Uru Live.


OS goes as the fans make it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Okay, we have officially gone into crazy-town now. Not only am I being compared to China, but now apparently I'm accusing those who want to tell their stories in their own way as being anti-Cyan.

I'm not. Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop building me as a strawman.

As soon as people get Open Source, the plot is going to go in directions that Cyan didn't intend it to go. Actually, I suspect even before that. As I've said before, although we'll never know just how much of the Prologue and Gametap plots were changed because of explorer actions, I'm willing to bet it was quite a lot. So don't pretend that I'm holding to some rigid plan for the plot that Cyan has. I've never said that, I've never promoted that.

But there's a huge difference between Cyan being good enough storytellers to roll with explorer actions and alter the plot as needed, and this strange "Cyan is an evil overlord and we must be free of them" vibe that I'm getting from some of the die-hard open sourcers. People are acting as if you have to be either for complete anarchy, or against open-source altogether. That just ain't so. I'm very much for open source. Actually, upon reading that quote that Rusty dredged up, I did some thinking and I think something like that would work. But while Rusty seemed to read that quote and insert the idea that Cyan was giving us their baby with no restrictions whatsoever, I actually, you know... read the quote.

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This is also a bit scary for the fans. We realize that this could turn Uru Live into the “wild west” and lead to many fractured and diverse Myst Online servers. But it is our hope that with the help of dedicated core fans (if you are reading this, it probably means you) that a safe and secure Myst Online server set (many servers from around the world working together as one) can be created that will let people explore and live in Uru Live.


That whole scary "wild west" fractured and diverse scenario? That's the "my personal canon is just as good as real canon" mindset that some of you are espousing. What's Cyan asking for there? Just what they say. Dedicated core fans (which I think is most of us who actually care enough to argue about this) creating a safe and secure Myst Online server set. That means a server set that fits with canon, working together to actually create a full universe. Cyan won't be in charge of all of it, but they will be at the head of it, and I think any server that has an interest in maintaining this wonderful story we've all been a part of will voluntarily go with their suggestions, and work with them. See, that could work. It's a little scary, but it could work. A cluster of servers dedicated to a shared universe, with those in charge in communication with each other to ensure their canons don't contradict each other. Ideally, this would also include Cyan.

But that's not the same thing as letting the fans put whatever they want on the servers for whatever reason.

So, as of now I'm looking for solutions. I'm looking for ways that fan content can be included, used, and functioning on the Cyan server, and as of now how other servers can tie into the Cyan server and remain part of Cyan server canon. I'm looking to get as much fan involvement as possible without it devolving into anarchy and discontinuity.

And as of now you are comparing me to China and accusing me of calling others anti-Cyan because they want their fan stories to be included. That's not why they're anti-Cyan, they're anti-Cyan because they seem to think any Cyan oversight will kill Uru.

I know this is the internet, guys, but seriously, we're Myst fans. Can't we keep the conversation a little more intelligent than that?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Fan fiction that fits within Cyan's canon = canon
Fan fiction that goes outside Cyan's canon = not canon

This is what Cyan was aiming for I believe?

Basically anything fans do in the D'niverse that doesn't conflict with Cyan's view of how their world should be is canon. This is what Cyan was going for in MOUL, which is why we could change the direction events went in, at least somewhat (they gave us a general direction, and we point the precise direction.

This is of course is opinion again (though opinion on what I've seen from Cyan) :D

The discussion really wont end until more things come from Cyan, especially a clear statement in writing on what their intents are that leaves no room for speculation and makes exactly clear what's going to happen. Until then, remember, we're all people with idea's, opinions, and wants. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:31 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Ah, I'm sorry, I was unaware that the internet had so many copies of Uru run by "the people" and running without restriction. My bad.

Could you post a few links? That actually sounds interesting. Any?

Right. Stop pretending this is a marketing issue. Cyan has never treated their fanbase poorly. Indeed, they're remarkably encouraging of fans to form their own community within the cavern. They're moving toward open source so that fans can have even more community and control.

That is not the same thing as Cyan being absolutely helpless to stop whatever the fans decide. And threatening to leave if they don't? That's just silly.


There are plenty of "underground" Uru shards in operation that Cyan has not control over, that already use fan content.

For example:

Image

As for Cyan not treating the fan base poorly, that is a matter of personal opinion, I can introduce you to people who feel they have.

DocOlanA wrote:
Quite frankly, as long as Cyan controls the code for their server... yes, actually, they can say exactly who gets to publish ages, or do anything else.

Really, this idea that players can somehow do whatever they want and Cyan can't do anything about it is just... I mean, it's a little silly. You do realize that we're playing a game Cyan made, right? And that even after it goes OS, Cyan will still have control over their shard, and quite possibly the core code in all shards? So, when you say that Cyan can't do anything to control content... you do realize that there's no truth at all in that, right? Because literally they will be the ones in control, at least of their own shard and likely the core code of all the others.


Not really, Cyan have indicated that the server code and stuff is going open source, their Ages and what not are not, so no Cyan won't retain core code in all the shards, that's the whole point of going open source.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Are you agreeing with those in the fanbase who feel they have been treated poorly by Cyan, Tweek? Are you one of them?

I'm not trying to be accusative, I really want to know, because it surprises me that someone listed as a Cyan employee would say that.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:18 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Okay, we have officially gone into crazy-town now. Not only am I being compared to China, but now apparently I'm accusing those who want to tell their stories in their own way as being anti-Cyan.

Because you totally never said this: "I really hope Cyan is ignoring these threads, the anti-Cyan sentiment is just... very depressing to someone like me who wants to see his favorite game actually work this time. "

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That whole scary "wild west" fractured and diverse scenario? That's the "my personal canon is just as good as real canon" mindset that some of you are espousing.

Incorrect, Dr. China. The "wild west" is referring to a scenario like Second Life in which adult content is posted online and there are no rules. Rand has said this frequently. That content falls under the Legality portion of "Legality, Stability." It violates the ToS.

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Cyan won't be in charge of all of it, but they will be at the head of it,

Cyan won't be in charge of it all, but they will be at the head of it. Do you read your sentences or do you just drop them on the screen?

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And as of now you are comparing me to China and accusing me of calling others anti-Cyan because they want their fan stories to be included. That's not why they're anti-Cyan, they're anti-Cyan because they seem to think any Cyan oversight will kill Uru.

Thank you for clearing up why I must be purged.

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I know this is the internet, guys, but seriously, we're Myst fans. Can't we keep the conversation a little more intelligent than that?

Just so people don't get the wrong idea, it was your hard-nosed, my way or the highway tactics and rhetoric that changed the tone of this discussion. There was a healthy debate going on in the Paranoia Lives topic until you came in and told people their ideas needed to "die right here."

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:21 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Are you agreeing with those in the fanbase who feel they have been treated poorly by Cyan, Tweek? Are you one of them?

I'm not trying to be accusative, I really want to know, because it surprises me that someone listed as a Cyan employee would say that.


Erm no, I was simply saying that there are people who do feel that way, sometimes a box is just a box.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Tweek wrote:

Erm no, I was simply saying that there are people who do feel that way, sometimes a box is just a box.


Is it a box? Or a gateway to another dimension!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look, Cyan will do what it wants on it's server, and people will do what they want on their own server. Quality will prevail over quantity in terms of what severs would be successfull. It will take some time, but you will most definitely see what happens with the fan ages when we get to them when open source comes out. People need to get their sea legs first and figure out what we can and can not do with the open source project and go from there. So to those out there freaking out (myself included), just breathe it will be alright. The world that we know as the Myst Universe will not collapse upon itself.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:31 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Are you one of them?


"Vell, it vas very LONELY on ze Russian front..."

DocOlanA wrote:
I'm not trying to be accusative, I really want to know, because it surprises me that someone listed as a Cyan employee would say that.


There's a Gilbert Gottfried joke in there somewhere, I know it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:39 pm 
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This sure seems like a really contentious issue but I, seeing all this as pretty much an outsider, am kind of confused about what people are really concerned about. I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning what would happen when the source is released:

1) We'd have a central, official Cyan shard that Cyan can do their own thing with. We already have this part now with the launch of MOULagain.

2) Other shards for fans to do with what they wish. Whether that be just using the Cyan content, adding their own content, or retooling the game from the bottom up into something completely different.

This way there's something available for everyone. Now maybe I'm completely crazy, but I don't really see what's so contentious about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:43 pm 
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tahgayrahl wrote:
This way there's something available for everyone. Now maybe I'm completely crazy, but I don't really see what's so contentious about this.

You're not alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
DocOlanA wrote:
Are you agreeing with those in the fanbase who feel they have been treated poorly by Cyan, Tweek? Are you one of them?

I'm not trying to be accusative, I really want to know, because it surprises me that someone listed as a Cyan employee would say that.


Erm no, I was simply saying that there are people who do feel that way, sometimes a box is just a box.


Sure. There are also people who think Myst was horribly boring and killed adventure gaming. But we're talking about reality here, or at least trying to.

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