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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:00 pm 
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We have our threads about what we think will work to help those new to Uru enjoy the game and stay. I have seen very little hard information about what is happening with Uru. We have a little sign up and logon information. I don’t recall seeing information about repeat logons. How many signed up and logged on once? How many complete the game and continue to logon? How long to people logon for?

When it comes to our ideas of what will or won’t work for new players it is mostly speculation and opinion. Those at Cyan and Creative may have more information but we aren’t hearing it and I suspect it is going to remain hidden behind NDA’s.

New information on the 'new player's' concerns is out today. Second life has tens of thousands of new signups every month. The majority of those, 90+% - if I remember correctly, are one time tries. The new information on first time player experience is based on extensive research and analysis. While Linden Lab has its problems and biases the information is based on far better research and investigation than our individual opinions, which does mean someone here doesn’t have it right… just the adds are…

What they think is most important and I think is also a problem for the Uru community is the way people experience the first few minutes.
Linden Lab wrote:
The first point of feedback was that most new Residents didn't have the time or inclination to "figure out" what to do. Of course, the open-ended nature of Second Life is a key part of what has made Second Life successful, but in those critical first few minutes, we need to make new Residents successful. In our new design, we focused on a linear flow, with clear tasks, and a simple set of interactions to learn the basic skills of Second Life.

In Uru we have a purpose, solve the puzzles. Imagine the challenge of an open ended system… If you have been watching Caprica (SyFy channel) the avatar world of New Caprica asks the same question again and again… what is this …substitute SyFy std. bad word here… game about? How does one win? Whatever, they have to solve the problem. While the details of Open Uru are different, the process and interaction with the players is similar.

How many people are still having a problem with ‘not being able to save the game’ and being frustrated?

I think the LL research also makes it clear one cannot expect people to go read a forum before trying the game.

Wherever we start a new player off, they need to be able to undertand the goal and accomplish something giving them positive feed back of some success. Adapting an OHBOT to power Zandi might be help. Loading him up with spoilers and tutorial info might be a good move. No one wants to read and listening to long winded canned speeches is not much better. People come to MMOG's to play and interact with people. An AI is better than a book/journal or canned speeches.

Linden Lab wrote:
A second comment we heard was, "I got to Second Life, walked around, but left because that's all there was." A significant portion of new Residents didn't realize that there is more to Second Life than Help Island. For those users, we focused on making the last step--in our linear flow--about educating new Residents on the depth and breadth of Second Life.

There is also more to Uru than many people first see. So, our linear path through the game has problems too. How we solve that in a frame work where new players will spend the time to learn is a bit challenging. When open source is here and shards have their own web sites or other game sign up areas some of that can be handled on the way in.

New game intro videos may help. But we need to know how many new players are watching them and how many skipping them. If 75% or more skip them we need to do something else.

May be Zandi should be a bit less IC in his first speech and give new players the info they probably need and then let them ask questions... may be we should have a little town out side the cleft area where greeters can hang and help out... We have several possibilities.


All in all the new information provides a good information on where the research is leading Linden Lab. While the games are different the people are pretty much the same, so some form of their solutions are considerations for us. I think they show us more objectively what issues are important to new players.

Read the full article: Unveiling An Improved New Resident Experience - by T Linden on Mar 31, 2010 9:12:42 AM

Trivia: The current and new SL viewer has about 3,700 user controls/settings... :shock: fortunately one does not have to deal with them as they are setup automatically based on your hardware. However, they are available for tweaking your experience and performance.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:50 am 
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Interesting and thoughtful post.

I am wary, as you know, of anything along the lines of "If we want people to like Uru we have to make it less Uru-y and more like this other game." I watch Murdoch Mysteries and Fringe (though not Caprica), but that doesn't mean I want Detective Murdoch to acquire a mad scientist father or the Bishops to be transported back to Victorian Toronto, and while it might make both series more popular if the heroes suddenly found themselves in charge of a high school choir full of troubled but tuneful teens, it would actively put me off. Similarly with games. SL may indeed be very popular, but I don't think that means Uru should emulate it.

The challenge of an open-ended system? I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that Uru should be more open-ended than it is at the moment?

Hard information about player statistics would indeed be helpful to us in working out best practices for when we (well, not me, but some of us) are running our own shards, if that happens. It would be nice if Cyan could see its way to giving some indications in that direction, but not something we should hold our breath waiting for.

Nalates wrote:
No one wants to read and listening to long winded canned speeches is not much better. People come to MMOG's to play and interact with people."


This is a huge generalisation and begs the question "what do you mean by play?" I love to read, and listen to recordings, and I came to Uru to explore the backstory of D'ni (and interact with people who wanted the same) having got thoroughly bored with "playing" in GW and EVE. To me, playing a Myst game is bound to involve reading and maybe listening to messages. Again, it's part of the experience which, if ditched, would dilute the nature of the game.

Nalates wrote:
May be Zandi should be a bit less IC in his first speech and give new players the info they probably need and then let them ask questions... may be we should have a little town out side the cleft area where greeters can hang and help out... We have several possibilities.


Zandi is (or should be, if new players start in the Cleft as I think they should) the first encounter the new player has, the one that leads them into the game world. Making him "less IC" would ruin that. Making him more informative might not be such a bad thing, but then you're listening to canned speeches again, and surely one of the central points of Yeesha's Journey, one of the key factors in the backstory that is really all that makes this game unique, is that we aren't given all the information?

I've often felt that realistically there should be a sort of shanty town of the Called in the Cleft, something like a semi-permanent Burning Man thing going on...but how do you people it? Do you set it up as a communal area for players, so they don't even have to go to the city except for books? Or do you fill it with bots (more canned speeches)?

I hate to keep coming back to this, but searching round for ways to bring the crowds to Uru is, I think, a misconceived endeavour. We are not the supermarket. We don't have the size or the clout to compete with the supermarket. We are the little mom-and-pop store down the road that people come to because they don't like the supermarket, and the way to compete with the supermarket is to be more of what we are, to supply more of what the supermarket doesn't bother with.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:18 am 
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Sorry if this is a long post...

Whenever people start discussing this issue, it's always hard to find a balance between the desire to mantain Uru as unique as it is, and the desire to get new people to the Cavern.

Every time we discuss about how to "improve Uru" for the newcomer, someone raises Zander's point (with whom I tend to agree on this -- and on Fringe ;-) ): the discovery of where you are and what you are supposed to do is one of the most important parts of the Uru experience.

But then I ask myself: how many of us have never looked at a spoiler about how to solve an Age? How many of us would have gotten all the important pieces of the Uru lore without coming to the forums? How many of us are not confused still by the rules of Age instancing? How frustrating would it be for us to understand what's the point with touching books and going to another "place", if we had not played the Myst games? How many of us, who love to read journals, have actually read all the books of the kings in the Palace alcove?

At times, we fool ourselves into thinking we are a group of "perfect explorers", and that a newcomer can really enjoy Uru only if she/he is a perfect explorer like us. Let's face it, Uru as it is now is the result of years accumulating information and events. The truth is, most of us played Uru for the first time with an already solid background about what we were supposed to do and what the game was about, and yet the amount of new information in Uru was already overwhelming. Most of us have not figured it all out by ourselves over these years, but have probably come to the forums for help even before asking people in the Cavern, even before being able to meet anyone in the Cavern.

Not to mention the fact that things like "how do I save the game?" is OOC stuff that should be explained to the player clearly at the beginning.

Let's remember that having more Uru fans around does not only mean more money for Cyan (hopefully), and therefore more chances to continue the story of the DRC, Yeesha, Kadish etc. I know that some find that uninteresting anyway. Having more explorers down here also means a better Uru for all of us!

Just imagine going to Ae'gura and finding 100 people instead of 4, or having regular Jalak tournaments with players and public, or imagine the kind of storytelling which would be possible by affecting large groups of people, as it was for example in Prologue.

We cannot simply be happy with what we have, while we could try to have so much more. In addition, while I agree that the previous two attempts were not successful in terms of drawing large crowds to the Cavern, we also have to ask ourselves what we have to lose if we try different paths. Cyan had everything to lose by having Uru Live and MOUL fail -- we would at worst revert back to where we stand now.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Simone wrote:
How many of us, who love to read journals, have actually read all the books of the kings in the Palace alcove?


/me timidly raises hand

But yes, I used hints and tips and outright walkthroughs and came here and asked questions about how to do stuff. Just as I have with about every other computer game I've ever played. This is probably because I am vastly stupid, but from the comments I see on here I don't think I'm alone, and I don't think it's a flaw in the game. And yes, I was on the forums long before I got to play the game, because I didn't have a computer that would do it.

"How do I save the game?" How do you save your progress in Guild Wars, in LOTRO, in EVE? I don't know one multiplayer online game where you have to save anything. How elementary do we have to be?

I know that people will continue to hope and push for more people in Uru, because the goals you mention are indeed attractive, like winning the lottery or publishing a bestseller. I can't help it that it seems to me like the well-known definition of insanity to keep trying for this, or that I worry that babies will get thrown out with bathwater in the process of trying to woo people who aren't really interested. I like Uru basically as it is. More content, from fans or from Cyan, would be nice. I'd hate to see it become something I couldn't maintain interest in just to try and get more people. Sorry if that seems selfish, but I'd much rather Cyan used their work cycles to make something else that would be more popular and left Uru as it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:32 pm 
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I doubt if even Cyan would do Uru the same way today, given that they were aiming for a game with a lot of players. Zander, you always seem to imply that Cyan meant to do this quirky little game with only a tiny number of players -- you do know they were aiming for a game with a huge number of subscribers.

I got through Uru, the first time, because I was in the beta, and made to feel very special. I always used walkthroughs for some stuff -- player personal choice, works for me. I hoped that when the game went live, the startup would not be so awful. These issues were documented all through the beta. I guess it was just too late to fix it before it went live.

I do think the "saving the game" question is understandable because it sure isn't clear when you start it, that it's really a multiplayer game. There's not much of a multiplayer type inteface, no help, nothing, and there are no people to interact with. It looks single player, certainly in the cleft and in your Relto. Once you get into an area with people, it starts to look multiplayer, even without the KI but it's still confusing. And if you play other multiplayer games, even more confusing. Remember, most instances in other multiplayer games are not permanent -- if you leave the instance your progress goes away. From the structure of other multiplayer games, it makes sense to think that if you left an instance, your progress would go away. But - your progress does not go away, and unlike many solo player games, your progress is saved. How would someone know that?

I don't see how we could change the structure, significantly, since we can't change the Cyan created ages, and it doesn't seem to me that they will be investing any resources/money in changing their ages. But geez -- maybe something, helper bots, people get the KI automatically, something?

I do think that in the "olden days" - Cyan did look at their data, their stats, their metrics. I believe Chogon posted on that. Yes, I know, there's lots of yelling in the online game development world, on what you use metrics and data for, but I happen to think it's a good thing, data is golden. Now, are they doing anything with that data today, given that they aren't working on Uru (except, hopefully, on open source) -- who knows?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:02 pm 
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mszv wrote:
I doubt if even Cyan would do Uru the same way today, given that they were aiming for a game with a lot of players. Zander, you always seem to imply that Cyan meant to do this quirky little game with only a tiny number of players -- you do know they were aiming for a game with a huge number of subscribers.


Yes, but by now I think they must have taken it on board that that isn't going to happen. You know how much I love Uru (not in any kind of a sexual or a romantic way, I hasten to add) so you know I am not going to be saying it's a bad game. Some good things have limited appeal. This is one. The evidence is all around us. If people would only come to terms with that idea, I think it would save a lot of heartbreak.

LATER: You seem to be saying that you can go to the site, download the client, install it, open an account, log on, and then be surprised that you're playing a multiplayer game. I don't think you can.

Everything you give the new player as a freebie when you start is something less to find out through gameplay. I don't think Uru as it stands has enough gameplay that we can afford to lose any. But I could be wrong on that, as on everything, of course. My opinions are just that.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
The challenge of an open-ended system? I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that Uru should be more open-ended than it is at the moment?

I am always puzzled that people first think the idea is to make Uru more SL like. I think it is pretty well established that the chaos and no limits fan creation of SL goes far beyond what we want in Uru. But we do have some of the same challenges. Linden Lab (LL) has recognized the human trait of impatience when starting a game. People do not want to visit a web site to learn how to initially play. People need to get some immediate sense of satisfaction, joy, or completion from their initial experience.

SL is doing that in part by changing their viewer, the client side software. We are planning client changes too.

SL is putting the BASIC learning in the path of new players. There is no way for them to avoid it until they learn enough about the system to find their way around. We are looking at how to make new players aware of the nature of the game and how to play it and contact others.

It is not that we want Uru to be more SL-like, it is that we have the same problems. While we may create other solutions we will have to solve the same problems.

huge generalization … ummm… yeah. Point taken. That could have been written better. Can you pick up on what I mean? You may like to read but when you first come into a game are you really planning on reading reams of stuff before you can do something? What the research is showing is that people do not want to do that. They want to do or accomplish something in the game. We can surmise that the first thing they want to know is whether the game is any fun to play and experience it, not be told. I think that is why many ideas fall short. Having greeters in a little town outside the cleft lets them meet people, something anyone looking for MMO play wants, and gets them an experience of the people and game.

Depending on whether Zandi were give an AI system like OHBot, it could be possible to get away from the canned speeches and provide a more interactive experience. It could also be more to the point by answering questions rather than just spewing information.

The community has an ongoing debate about whether to attract new players or not. Even among the “yes… we need new players” crowd we have a debate as to how much effort and priority to place on attracting new players. Other threads are for those debates. We disagree on that issue. I see those wanting to attract players as looking ahead and thinking out their reasons. I think those that feel attracting new players is not an important issue have the misconceptions. Only time will tell which is right.

Simone, in answer to your how many of us questions… From various reports and comments on information coming out of Cyan we figure there were about 50,000 Uru Live players. I didn’t look it up but I seem to recall we had about 8,000 forum members then. So, I would guess something like half the players never looked at the forum. While it is hard to know, I do know from play in SL is that when a game has a good communication system few players bother to look at the forums and outside support resources. Onely the core players use them and usually for technical reference, i.e., how do I do something better – make my gun bigger, bad’er, faster, build something.

“How elementary do we have to be?” A good point. We do have to decide. Stats will tell us how important things are. We know that people run into that 'save game' challenge. Especially those coming from other adventure and solo play games. But how prevalent that is and how much effort should be devoted to it is opinion unless we have stats.

Zander on mszv wrote:
LATER: You seem to be saying that you can go to the site, download the client, install it, open an account, log on, and then be surprised that you're playing a multiplayer game. I don't think you can.

I think the SL data shows people are taking very little from the pages leading into the game. I believe a large number of people simply drive by trying to get to the fun part. Then they base their impression on their initial uneducated experience. SL seems to have picked up on that and their new intro process may work. We probably won’t know for a couple of months. The idea that they can get people oriented in 10 minutes so they can talk to others and find things is their key goal.

I also think that those that do pickup on the MMO nature walk into the game and ask, 'where is everyone?' Either way, there is a problem to solve.

The open ended nature of SL is such that one can literally do anything. They need to convey that idea and give some fun examples within that ten minutes. We’ll see how well they do. We need to accomplish the same things in Uru but our challenge is simpler. Telling them in a manual that Uru is a puzzle, you navigate this way, and you chat this way in a totally dry OOC way is so boring. The more IC Zandi way seems better, I think. It seems we need to bluntly get across that there is a mystery to solve, it is locked behind puzzles, and you can talk to others (face to face with no KI and over distance with KI), there are no game saves because the world is persistent, and you have a choice of solo or group play.

Edit: changed some words added a sentence or two

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:58 pm 
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One small thing before people start making grand plans: an OHBot powered Zandi is POSSIBLE...but we're a LONG way from that. OHBot is about 40 DAYS old...and his code is MAYBE 50 days old. I'm all for finding ways to utilize his technology in fun and interesting ways...I just don't want to get anyone's hopes up thinking that next week we'll have a walking talking barbecuing Zandi. :)

That is all.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
But yes, I used hints and tips and outright walkthroughs and came here and asked questions about how to do stuff. Just as I have with about every other computer game I've ever played. This is probably because I am vastly stupid, but from the comments I see on here I don't think I'm alone, and I don't think it's a flaw in the game.


I too used hints, never read the kings books, am very confused by instancing, etc etc. I did not want to imply that it's a flaw of the game, if people need hints for the puzzles. But one should not need hints to understand how to get started, IMO. Uru is very different from most other games, which means that we cannot rely on new people having a correct approach to it from the beginning. And not everyone who tries a new game is willing to search forums or fan websites (e.g. GoG) for explanations, already a few minutes after starting the game. And my point is: those who are not willing to do so, are not necessarily people who would not like Uru as much as we do.

Quote:
I like Uru basically as it is. More content, from fans or from Cyan, would be nice. I'd hate to see it become something I couldn't maintain interest in just to try and get more people.


I agree wholeheartedly with you. For example, I'm sometimes scared by the idea of fan-made Ages. :-)
If I'm in favor of finding ways to ease new players into the game, it's because improving the first hours one spends in Uru does not imply changing Uru into something different. Actually, I think that the point here is to "prepare" newcomers so that they can experience Uru as we know it, in the best way. The challenge is to find the proper way to do so! Some of Nalates' suggestions are very inspiring.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:22 pm 
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What amazes me is that no one seems to have thought of SL or OSgrid or any other metaversal place you can build in (your choice of venue) as a test place to build ages and get people to come and try them out and use that information to improve a build for potential use in MOULa Open Source. Maybe for some it is their bias against those metavarses, but they do have their uses and I think that bias has allowed one heck of an opportunity to be missed (trust me, its not all about the stuff I have heard some going on and on and on and on about...that stuff is there but you don't have to be exposed to it if you don't want to. The Uru Community is an excellent example of a great place to hang, build, learn and have fun and there are many, many other such communities where absolutely incredible, talented, friendly non-Uru folk hang out and are more than willing to teach great skills such as building and scripting and such and would find a project such as age building simply fascinating).

Jandai has done a wonderful job with Crux Isle in SL while it is not an Uru Age it exemplifies how one can put something out there and use it as a laboratory so to speak to impove things and develop things. I have seen Jandai create increasingly interesting ideas and builds and Crux Isle certainly is the equal of Numbskulla Island which I believe another Uruite developed. I have heard many people praise Crux Isle and have started to go through it myself. The depth of thought and creativity that has gone into it is inspiring. People could have been making ages /or might want to consider creating ages in these places as a 'test market' for their age to see how someone new to the Uru experience would react to their age and be able to adapt accordinglyor improve on what they have done. It might also be a way, until we get Open Source, to figure ways of making things like this discussion of MOULa better in that respect.

I think OHBot is exactly that. I have seen such Bots in SL that do the same thing already and wonderful things they are. So for now, don't discount all the tools that are currently out there to utilize. Think about ways of making entry into things like MOULa, let alone places like OSgrid or SL easier or more 'digestible' for some - trust me some folk won't, can't, don't read any instructions and will ask the first person they meet....."I just got here, what is there to do?" There is no getting around that one, LOL.You can talk and theorize about it but there are tools out there NOW to try and see what works and doesn't work. OHB has hit it on the idea on the head, he just took it further and into MOULa - Kudos to you OHB for being a trailblazer. I see this as a first step in thinking in a different direction on how to approach things. Unfortunately I see folk getting bogged down in a lot of rhetoric, theorizing and opinionating and not much actually happening. OHB MADE it happen....time for rest of us to do the same. I am seeing a missed opportunity here that many could have taken advantage of but haven't.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Dudemom_2000 wrote:
OHB has hit it on the idea on the head...Kudos to you OHB for being a trailblazer...OHB MADE it happen....time for rest of us to do the same.


You're too kind :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Not, OHB...you exemplify what others talk and talk and talk and talk about but don't seem to do...you DO....

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:48 pm 
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/me wonders how employers feel about quotations on resumes.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Put me as a reference? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:26 am 
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Well, since there's nothing I could do to further these goals even if I agreed with them, I shall continue to watch apprehensively from the sidelines. I've said what I felt needed to be said for the best good of Uru as I understand it.


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