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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:10 pm 
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I guess I'm wondering When will we start restoring the city and hoods?
or is it just with the Guilds (the explorers who can Code and use 3D Max,& Blender etc.) 'Behind the curtains'
age making stuff?

Have to start a new thread that ONLY has advances and progress made.

I'm comming from the other side of the tracks. The above is the 'heads side' of the coin,
What about the tails side of the coin??? The 'in game' side. I realize that 'in game' machanics (spelling)
for any of this has to be 'Coded' and implemented. Heavy sigh IMO This is the #1 thing that
should be, being worked on and NOT age making which should be the last thing on the list of things to do.

I'm SORRY but I'm a SL or There.com or Onverse etc. 3D builder, texture mapper, Alcugs type of MODing
(hacking, modding, changing existing game files) no real coding involved really Type of explorer. ok
I'm Gehn, Please don't put me in a trap book! lol But IMO about 90% of the explorers are just like me
when it comes to creating and editing, Modding the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:47 pm 
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VoiZod, are you talking about the ability to build an age from inside the game by simply clicking where you want walls, streams, grass... stuff like that. Kinda like a Farmville (facebook app) but 3d for URU? I think that's your question at least.
On the assumption that's what you want,

I'd have to say VERY VERY far away. Most of the Age writers are going to be interested in writing their stories first. I haven't seen too many that want to write code intensive applications that would give others the ability to tell their story (make 3d worlds) inside the game. The intense amount of effort to create such an app would require time and money. Maybe with any luck there is an app out there that is free or cheap and someone can write a plug in that would convert the output file to work in URU but that would require a complete understanding of how URU works and that's still a ways off. Basically that's what they (fans) are doing with blender. Blender is a free 3d writer software and they (fans) are adapting the output file to work in URU. They (fans) haven't even perfect that yet but they are doing a wonderful job in my opinion with the resources they have.

Cyan is working on getting the fans the source code needed. Once that's done I imagine the output converters will be able to be written for almost any of your preferred modeling programs.

The other question I have is if you want to write a 3d place like in SL..... why not go write it in SL? (not trying to be rude but it might sound like that). I know many many many ppl who have.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:19 pm 
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We should probably ask a moderator to split off this part of the thread…

VoiZod, several of us are building in SL/OS grids. I’m currently changing my SIM over to MySQL database and writing the how-to-post. For some time I’ve thought there would be more people interested in the easy building and near instant gratification available in SL/OS grids. Once you have SL building pretty well down and are able to make nice looking textures, you are ready to move on to SCULPTIES (for non-SL types, a sculpty is a bizarre way to import free form meshes into SL… did I mention bizarre?). At that point you are learning much of what would be needed to build for MOULagain.

Sudre is right about the possibility of being able to build within MOULagain or Open Source being far far away. Unless Cyan allows us to move their content to another platform, I doubt it will ever happen. The technical difficulties are so tied into the foundation of the game mechanics it would require a major rewrite of significant portions of the game code. I think it unlikely anyone will want to take that on.

Also, much of the chaos in SL is from people being able to easily build whatever they want. No matter what one thinks of canon the idea of dragons and dinosaurs flying around breathing fire and chasing bahro and Klingons fighting with bat'leths is generally considered a bad idea. Some things are just not Myst-like.

I think we have something like 12 regions on the OSGrid. I’m not sure how the region owners on those SIM’s will handle building by other players. Since it is possible to add home based SIM’s and it is free several people have began considering making their own Myst style builds there. Or using the OpenSIM software to have a world on your home computer.

You might join the Devokan project and follow various projects on OpenUru.org.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Quote:
VoiZod, are you talking about the ability to build an age from inside the game by simply clicking where you want walls, streams, grass... stuff like that. Kinda like a Farmville (facebook app) but 3d for URU? I think that's your question at least.
On the assumption that's what you want,

I'd have to say VERY VERY far away. Most of the Age writers are going to be interested in writing their stories first. I haven't seen too many that want to write code intensive applications that would give others the ability to tell their story (make 3d worlds) inside the game. The intense amount of effort to create such an app would require time and money. Maybe with any luck there is an app out there that is free or cheap and someone can write a plug in that would convert the output file to work in URU but that would require a complete understanding of how URU works and that's still a ways off.


We would have to find or code or use M5's prodical engine to create high quality basic objects which will use the textures already in the game 1- you can upload your own approved textures but this comes as a last step. The tablet rosetta stones will have new more complexed bahro symbols to write on the stones. Each symbol is tied to one of the basic shapes or object ( all Objects and shapes will
have to be cut out (of the game map,mesh etc.) into indivuadual pieces. All the ages in URU even the city are in huge 3D bubbles on a grid that used to be mapped out to the Toran. The KI is a daimond in disguise anchient D'ni device there are many more things it
can do which we have to yet discover. ( code in and implement). there is the StarFissure (opened by Gehn's way of writing ages),
Which (IMO) which is a tare in the age it is the inbetween space of the Great Tree and all its bubble (leafs) ages! But it is rooted in D'ni
thank the maker! To get to your age you will have to jump into the starfissure and arrive in a blank age bubble.

Quote:
The other question I have is if you want to write a 3d place like in SL..... why not go write it in SL? (not trying to be rude but it might sound like that). I know many many many ppl who have.


I could use SL as a template for creating our real age in HERE! hey yea! or OpenGrid would be better maybe even make a plugin that will convert OG ages to URU ready files. But thats not been the point I have been trying to make but I guess its the only thing you can do at this time.

I have suggested a few of the machanics above and also would like to see machanics dynamicly happening paralel (spelling)
to whats happening 'behind the curtains' like for example; as you are coding your age in 3D max or what ever (behind the cutains)
explorers would see your avatar 'in game' sitting at a guild table writing in a blank discriptive book, as you get farther along in coding
the more D'ni text is seen in the book. could even tie that into when your in your starfissure bubble too.

All the Hoods are instances, each Hood has it own instance of the city Ae'gura, think of URU as a huge Tree with strings of bubbles on its branches ie; the hoods and city instances etc. The Hoods them selfs become 'The lesser guilds' which will be able to
restore their own version of their Hood and city to the way they see it.

actualy BOTH ways of creating and rebuilding CAN work together. Its just fustrating but The Ending will Never be written!
:wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:13 pm 
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i think cyan has made it fairly clear that we won't be touching any of the "core" stuff like the hoods and ae'gura, at least not on the official servers.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:46 pm 
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uh... Hoods are far from "core" do you have any idea how many "hoods" there are?

Cyan has also specifically said different hood layouts are ok.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:43 pm 
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VoiZod, no matter what building system we might use or whether Cyan allows changes to their ages or not, we probably won’t ever see the type of dynamic in game building seen in SL. The reason for that is how the game handles its ages. Everything is pre-built and up loaded to all users at logon.

A very different process is used in SL. When one pops a cube into existence (rez’s) in SL that information is sent to the Asset Server and the cube’s attributes are stored. That link information is then sent to all players within sight of the cube. They download the information and their viewer (client side of SL) renders the cube.

There is no such storage and retrieval mechanism in MOULagain. The infrastructure is just not there. If you were able to rez a cube into existence in MOULagain, there is no on-the-fly system for uploading it to the server and then downloading to other players. We build in Blender or 3DMax and create all the ages’ files, then upload to the server for distribution to all the players as a game update. This infrastructure limit precludes in game building.

The idea of using SL or OpenSim as a ‘staging area’ … They are great places to test concepts. To port an SL/OpenSim build to MOULagain is somewhat like trying to turn an ocean going oil tanker into an airplane. The basic design concept is to make the ship strong enough to resist the forces it will experience, with weight not really being a limiting factor. Airplanes have to consider weight as a primary design criteria and a physical restraint. MOULagain and SL/OpenSim are that different.

While it is conceivable one could move a build from one to the other, I doubt a good automated system would ever be built as things are now. I’ve looked at taking MOUL ages into OpenSim. With a lot of work, I can do it. Going from SL/OpenSim to other systems is easier, but still complex. The current restrictions in OpenSim and SL make it easier to build an imitation of MOUL ages from scratch.

Those restrictions will loosen this year as free form meshes are added to SL (they exist in some OpenSim systems now as an add-on). Once that happens it may be practical to consider a conversion program. But even then… it is an amazingly complex process.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:11 am 
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as a purely theoretical suggestion, although it would still require at least some familiarity with some modelling software, be it blender or 3dsmax... and *entirely* depends on which 3d engine SL uses, by "3d engine" I don't so much mean the "game engine" i mainly mean the rendering type of thing, as in, OpenGL, or DirectX, etc...

You *might*, just maybe, and yes, i'm being /very/ non-committal, i have not tried this, nor would I.. you could use a program that captures the model data from the rendering itself.. I must admit I've also forgotten the name for this kind of software, as well, as it has been so long since I've used something like it, for other systems..

But, essentially, it captures the data as rendered by opengl/directx and spits the scene out as a .obj... you could then import this data into blender or 3dsmax, both support obj, and then fudge an age out of it.

I do not recommend this, but, if you /really/ wanted to build things in SL for uru, you /might/ be able to work with this data. I can't say that it definitely /will/ work suitably, and most likely won't, due to the way objects are done in SL. But, you might be able to use such things as a base. It DEFINITELY will need some work from this captured data, though, but, it /might/ get you started. don't take my word for it, though.

...I feel so dirty for even suggesting this...

EDIT: here is one such program...

http://www.deep-shadows.com/hax/3DRipperDX.htm

A "3d ripper"


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:01 am 
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kaelisebonrai - That's the long way 'round. It would be far easier to just convert the data files themselves if you were intent on using the unlicensed Cyan models. I mean, either way you'll have to do conversion and clean up. Using a 3D Ripper just adds another (potentially error-prone and lossy) step to acquiring data we already have just sitting on the hard drive.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:50 am 
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actually, I was referring to getting the data from an SL-built "age" rather than from Uru ages. if you want the uru ages, there's much, much, /much/ better methods, which I'm pretty sure we can't mention here.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:32 am 
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There are programs for exporting from SL. AutoCad has a commercial application. I saw an open source project somewhere...

While it makes sense to me to take MOUL ages to other systems, I can't see taking SL things to the MOUL environment.

Blue Mars SIM building is much more like MOUL age building.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:24 pm 
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well, by "SL" things, I'm referring $randomuser's content they particularly want to take to MOUL, for example, a D'ni Hood they have built in SL.. And they may or may not wish to convert to a MOUL format. for this, they could use a 3d ripper, or whatever software you're referring to. Though, AutoCad format would not be terribly helpful, AutoCad /can/ be used, if you have autocad, and can export to another format that blender supports... Though, maybe there is an autocad importer, I just doubt it. =P OBJ is pretty much the only format that you can transfer between blender and 3ds max and back, though.

While BlueMars' SIM system may perhaps be more like Uru's system, it'll still be fairly painful to transfer between to two, as the only real thing you can expect to transfer nicely, is model data, and nothing else.

My suggestion was at someone wanting an SL-form of building. It can be done, but its a horrible, horrible kludge. and is in general a horrible, horrible workaround, too.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:07 pm 
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The Problem with AutoCad is that from my experience building something inspired by M.C. Ecsher's Relativity, AutoCad and Blender are two completely different animals. I believe Kaelis has seen what I can do in AutoCad 3D but I am completely lost in Blender.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Given 3DS plugins, we should in theory be quite able to work just with blender, I think. Seeing as Blender has a converter to 3DS. I don't believe this adds some data important to 3DS however, such as individual object axis. I happen to have a plugin for Blender that adds object axis- however, that was designed specifically so Trackmania would accept them as 3DS models. I'm not sure how well it would apply.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:33 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
My suggestion was at someone wanting an SL-form of building. It can be done, but its a horrible, horrible kludge. and is in general a horrible, horrible workaround, too.

Agreed! :lol:

The SL export tool built for AutoCad runs in SL. The transfer files are OBJ files, I think. That lets one move things into Blender and 3DMax. I suspect it does textures too.

I suspect any age made with an SL export, without complete re-meshing, would have awful performance. A cube in SL has 1024 faces (I think I remember that correctly). I think all primitive shapes have 1024 faces. When you start to twist a cube you can start to see the faces. Sculpties have 4,096 faces.

I'm not sure what 3D Ripper would do with these objects.

A cube in Blender/3DMax going to MOULa can have as few as 6 faces.

Trying to do a direct conversion and reuse of SL content is not likely to ever be effective. When SL gets free form meshes it will be possible to easily take meshes from other worlds into SL. Taking a 6 face cube to SL would be far easier than figuring out a 1,024 face SL cube with 350 degrees of twist, 50% taper and 20% skew in X & Y, and a hole... for transfer to MOULa.

Sensei, it is possible to move between 3DMax and Blender. I don't know how well textures and UVMaps transfer. I would expect it to work pretty well. Not having 3DMax I haven't tried with my stuff. Using others models from 3DMax has not worked well for me. I usually have texture problems, but that could be me or the author.

The thing is, for now, we only have the Cyan plugin tool for 3DMax.

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