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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
While it makes sense to me to take MOUL ages to other systems, I can't see taking SL things to the MOUL environment.


But then why re-invent the wheel, when the plans for the wheel will be provided in due course.

Evolving the MOUL content into another platform removes the need for plasma. Additionally you will reproduce errors ten fold with a conversion to another engine.

Its wasted time and effort on everyones part who was involved in plasma engine development and testing in house at cyan, and hundreds if not thousands of hours by players spent testing in various stages of development.

Then we move into the realms of the countless number of hours people have spent discovering the secrets of plasma. Building the tools to support content creation, then the people who have built content, those people who have tested that content and so on ...

The vast majority of the work all the people have put into Uru over the years will be wasted if we abandon Uru's engine and start porting content to other platforms.

I don't agree with your view, and content should not be moved to another platform. This could be seen as a waste and possibly insulting to the people that have put their time and effort into the games development.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:00 am 
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DarK, we disagree.

You are right a large amount of time has been spent sorting out Plasma. If that were done as a commercial undertaking then it would be a waste. But most of those doing the work did it for their enjoyment, learning and as more of a hobby. I'm sure many saw it as another puzzle to solve. So, I don't see that it could every be considered a waste no matter what we do next.

One could also say that giving the code to those working on Plasma makes all that effort a waste. I doubt any of those working on figuring out Plasma would think so.

Changing to ODE physics might also be considered wasting all the work done to convert to PhysX. Should Cyan consider such a change an insult?

That someone should refrain from doing something because another thinks someone else will be insulted... is just over the top PC. They'll have to learn to deal with it, if they even care. Caring about others is good. Using others possible feelings as a hammer is just attempted manipulation.

There are already a number of non-Blender/3DMax people that want to build and add to ages. That is going to be challenging in Open Uru. The Plasma game machine just doesn't have a simple in game building ability included. We either have to add the feature or use another platform to achieve it. I think that it is unlikely it will ever be done. Many have chosen to use OS/SL for the alternative, so they can play and build now. I'm finding more and more Myst fans in OpenSim. The point I'm making in this thread is that while there are several reasons to go in the direction of OS/SL... the only thing suitable to bring back from OS/SL to Open Uru is the skills and learning gained in a simplified building environment.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:03 am 
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Sensei wrote:
Given 3DS plugins, we should in theory be quite able to work just with blender, I think. Seeing as Blender has a converter to 3DS. I don't believe this adds some data important to 3DS however, such as individual object axis. I happen to have a plugin for Blender that adds object axis- however, that was designed specifically so Trackmania would accept them as 3DS models. I'm not sure how well it would apply.


Blender /does/ have a .3ds exporter, yes. 3ds Max's native format is NOT .3ds, but rather .max It was .3ds a long, long time ago, it has been .max for quite some time.
3ds Max can import .3ds, but not .3ds files exported by blender. and Blender can import .3ds files, but not .3ds files exported by 3ds max, in general. The format most people transferring from one to another is OBJ. 3DS format files aren't really too useful for the purposes of Cyan's Exporter, but, that's quite alright, seeing as we do have a blender exporter for Uru. Though, currently, it doesn't support the version of Plasma that MOULagain uses. I /believe/ there are plans for a version of PyPRP that does, but, I don't know for sure, and if there is, I don't know when it is going to be released.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:22 am 
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This is a great proposal for a Player's Age! A link in your hood that goes to a restored hood, and a link in the city that goes to a restored city. (With all the barriers down and all the doors open, and all spaces explorable. )

Cant wait until we are ready to do all that! Everyone who plays Uru seems to have such great ideas. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
DarK, we disagree...


We? are we talking for someone else again ?!

Your response focuses on the more social aspects of the matter, and I can see how my original post can come across as focusing on those issues, However I want to introduce you to the actual issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured ... ign_Method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_d ... nt_process

Software is largely developed in cycles with set specifications, so a brief example for a game software:

Must render graphics
Must have Physics Engine
Must have user control of avatar
Content must be able to be rendered and allow use of Shaders

From this point on lets say we have met the specifications in a previous cycle and we have a working version of the game.

Bob from finance comes along and tells the development teams that the company can't meet the license payment for the 3rd party physics engine, and the company would never break even on the game. Additionally the CEO wants In-Game content creation

On this cycle we now need to add a new specification:

Replace Physics Engine to meet finance constraints
In-game content Creation

The development team assess various engines and prices, and they pick the one with the least cost and time and effort needed to replace the engine.

Additionally since its a core aspect of the original specification, the solution has to be met or there is no point to the overall development of the game.

Next they look at the time and effort required to add In-Game content creation. they quickly find its going to take too long, and more money than is available to make this goal possible.

They scrap In-game content creation as goal because of the above issues outlined.

They implement the design based on the feasibility above, and they meet 1 of the targets for this cycle.

If we apply this to Uru: the same applies, the engine was changed to support other aims and targets, other ideas where dropped due to time and money commitments.

Moving to your case of moving content to another platform: what are your aims for your project and is it feasible, does it compete or assist with the aims of Uru in anyway?

In the past there have been many projects that have come along and failed because they did not meet any specific requirement in Uru.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:00 am 
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So, since we were talking about adding in-game building in some simplified way, are you going through all the 'this is how one structures a software project' to say you are planing to add it? Or think someone in the community is?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:37 am 
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My End Game is to prevent people wasting time and effort by veering off the target of a "Open source Uru", and to start to take seriously the idea that development needs to be organized in a highly structured way in order to make valid progress.

Since the community are/will be holding the rains to the future of Uru, Now would be a great time to get some "specifications" down and start electing the aims till we have a priority.

We have a version of Uru to be working from, and there is promising signs from cyan that progress is going to be moving along more quickly now.

Between the releases of code and various tools from cyan, we can start building a global bug tracker to keep and eye on each issue and feature request.

This allows the more hardcore developers who want to work on the code, to get themselves together and understand what the main issues are.

Developers are useless to the project if they don't know what the project is aiming for.

Finally before it is said, the structured development methods do not stop people forking code and doing their own thing with the code.

If what they have developed is wanted by the masses, it will be elected as a priority to have it integrated into the core.

Since the community has real issues with "control", this seems an ideal way to pass control over to the people, without causing a fuss over it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:23 am 
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DarK wrote:
Its wasted time and effort on everyones part who was involved in plasma engine development and testing in house at cyan, and hundreds if not thousands of hours by players spent testing in various stages of development...

Then we move into the realms of the countless number of hours people have spent discovering the secrets of plasma. Building the tools to support content creation, ...

The vast majority of the work all the people have put into Uru over the years will be wasted if we abandon Uru's engine and start porting content to other platforms.

... This could be seen as a waste and possibly insulting to the people that have put their time and effort into the games development.

Happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Eons go by evolving a species that is suddenly wiped out by a capricious universe, laying waste to the energies spent of all that came before. The same thing happens in development and business. That's just the nature and the truth of it when the next big thing comes along. It's not always fair and it never feels good to those invested which is, I think, why you resist the notion. Was it all worthwhile if nothing exists in the end? It's very existential.

The years of hard-won discovery and learning done by fans who reverse engineered the Plasma engine will also be retroactively wasted when open source lays Plasma with the Uru client, servers and tools bare for all to see. Except that those efforts are part of what kept Uru alive. But Plasma would still exist for Cyan to use in their products. Doesn't open source also waste those years of painstaking labors of unpaid avids by giving the world instantly something that has taken, what, five or six years for avids to build? Hardly seems fair giving everyone for free something others have worked so hard to make for themselves.

I want Plasma to stick around, and I hope Cyan can use models from other open source projects to make a great living from their Plasma product as they, with help from the rest of the world, develop it. May it live long and prosper. What I say above is not meant to agree with doing away with Plasma, but to stress than we need to consider the point of view that it could happen and then respond with competition to stay relevant and prevent its extinction. The winners aren't going to stop because the losers say it would be a waste.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:33 am 
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What Dark posted a few posts above sounded like what happened when getting ready for
GT, Cyan had to switch over the whole game to a new phyX engine So does this mean
MOULa does not have Plasma engine driving it? If so PhyX is OS. and there still is a lot
even Cyan had not figured out yet at the time of GTs MOUL launch, ie the gareseen wall is the main one.

or is Plasma still in there somewhere? Sorry I'm confused again lol.

My point is that we do not know all what the extent phyX engine can do, it just might be that it can be made to
handle in game modding, flying , having a AI squee 'pet' following you around the cavern hehe. :lol:
even npc Bahro with AIs in them so explorers can ineract with them.

I want to create a working negligen hunting test outside the pod. here like Minkata but instead of vast sand there is vast jungle and tall grasses. you will have to find 5 more caves. A few of them have secret passageways in them. All the while
avoiding being seen or caught by the bahro. and other wild life there. You start off in the first Pod, leave it, find the cave, go inside it and find the bahro stone and link back to the mesuem in Ae'gura. The way to the cave changes each time with
each pod. some will be to collect like all the pieces of a seal type key to get a mysterious invis barrior down, to get to the stone. etc. and Yes some you will have to use a D'ni weapon of somekind, and the use of a rope,
What you are doing is also a part of a much bigger puzzle.
Each stone you touch puts in that climet that type of terrain and folage for your new Book of human D'ni knowlage.
This will be tied into Moula's new prodical engine and crafting feature ( the Art ) there are two mechanics that IMO I feel
that in the past Cyan and co. was tinkering with this very same idea, The Crystal Viewer in realMYST Ryme age, and
M5's Rosetta stone and tablets. all this is mixed with what people are already doing with 3d max and blender etc.
meaning a fan created age will be the combo of the two! and could potentualy make the Art and age etc. creation a whole lot easer for everyone.

And like all kids , they grow up! and they change! as well as have terrible growing pains. but I'm sure it will all be
worth it it in the .... :lol: 8) No I'm NOY saying that word!!!! :P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:44 pm 
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MOULa uses Plasma.

PhysX is only used for physics, and is not open-source.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:54 pm 
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VoiZod wrote:
What Dark posted a few posts above sounded like what happened when getting ready for
GT, Cyan had to switch over the whole game to a new phyX engine So does this mean
MOULa does not have Plasma engine driving it? If so PhyX is OS. and there still is a lot
even Cyan had not figured out yet at the time of GTs MOUL launch, ie the gareseen wall is the main one.

or is Plasma still in there somewhere? Sorry I'm confused again lol.


PhysX is nVidia's physics engine, comparable to Intel's Havok engine (I believe that the "offline" Uru games used Havok). It deals with the motion of objects; e.g. you kick a cone, it hits a wall, bounces off, hits another cone which then starts to move, etc.

Plasma is the overall game engine, i.e. the program. PhysX is just one of the libraries which Plasma uses.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:45 pm 
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TY I'm not confused anymore and PhyX did used to be OS or it did until nVidia bought it, which I think happened almost right
after Cyan got it from OS. please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

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URU - KI - Atrus 03668735, Katran 00982487,
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:50 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Happens all the time. Survival of the fittest. Eons go by evolving a species...


Not exactly … Evolution requires part of the existing to create the mutation

In all cases of evolution there is a transition phase where parts of the original are developed to create another generation.

You also need to define what constitutes and defines your species, one definition on Darwins list is warm and cold blooded creatures.

What defines one game from another within a genre? Usually the engine plays a big part of the classification

So if we move “Uru” to second life what do we get?

Are we evolving a game, or the whole genre?

Surely we can't be all that high and mighty to re define a genre and all the games within it?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:40 pm 
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VoiZod wrote:
TY I'm not confused anymore and PhyX did used to be OS or it did until nVidia bought it, which I think happened almost right after Cyan got it from OS. please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Neither Havok nor PhysX have ever been open-source.

PhysX is available free of charge on Windows and Linux, but it's a proprietary product. The rationale is presumably to support sales of nVidia's graphics hardware: PhysX will use hardware acceleration with nVidia-based cards, so the more PC games which use PhysX, the more advantage to having an nVidia-based card.

There is nothing in the PhysX SDK EULA (PDF) which precludes its use in an open-source program, although a licence such as the GPL would require an exemption to allow linking against the PhysX library, which would preclude the use of existing GPL'd code unless such an exemption could be obtained from its authors.

If an open-source physics engine was desired, the main choice would be ODE, which is available under either the LGPL or a BSD-style licence.


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