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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Eat_My_Shortz wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
Right. MOUL is freeware. People can try and dress it up otherwise, but it's freeware (or donationware, whatever you want to call it). The goal needs to be improving the game, not making money. You cannot make money with the present Uru, anyhow.

Yes, but Cyan is still making money off of the Plasma engine elsewhere, such as with MagiQuest Online, and less recently, Cosmic Osmo's Hex Isle. We need to respect that they will use this engine in future for commercial use, and that it would be beneficial for everyone if our changes are folded back into the main engine (nobody wants to maintain two versions of the engine for legal reasons).

Those are different versions of the Plasma engine and are not covered by this release.

It would be profitable for Cyan to be legally able to use MOOSE patches in MQO and Hex, to the full extent that that is technically feasible. Therefore they should choose a license that allows them to do so.

Yes, there will be some patches that depend on a particular version of Plasma. But there will be many that do not. And, as OMOUL becomes more stable, feature-rich, etc., Cyan may find it desirable to move MQO and Hex outright to the open-source version of the engine.

My golden rule of thumb (it's the same thumb I use to stir my metaphors) is: don't cut off Cyan's options.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:57 am 
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Pavitra wrote:
Can Cyan realistically make money from MQO (directly, in the way they're doing now) if MQO incorporates GPL'd code? This is why I was thinking earlier about special exemptions for Cyan, or later about developers assigning copyright to Cyan.

No, not unless code is signed over to Cyan with an additional agreement that Cyan can use the source for proprietary use without having to release modifications or changes.

I am agreeing with you that we should sign it over to Cyan. The thing that I am saying though is that that extra licensing should not be in the software license, such that if I want to fork the code and not contribute it back to Cyan, I don't have to grant Cyan additional rights.

But if I want code contributed back to Uru, (including in the community trunk), then I need to sign those rights (not necessarily the entire copyright) over to Cyan.

Pavitra wrote:
OpenDrizzle was just the name of a hypothetical program that might exist in the future. I imagined it as GPL, with copyright not assigned to Cyan (so that if Cyan wants to use it, such as in MQO, they're bound by the GPL).

Oh OK. I thought you were referring to Drizzle as OpenDrizzle. Yes, that sounds reasonable.

Pavitra wrote:
I thought someone (you?) earlier in this thread said that the FSF requires signing contributions over to them. "Resembles the model of the FSF" would then seem to entail "changes merged from (2) to (3) require signing".

Not if changes merged from (1) to (2) are already signed over to Cyan. My model was that any code contributed into (2) (the community trunk) has been signed by the developer so Cyan has additional rights to that code. Therefore, Cyan can merge anything they like (potentially all) from (2) into (3) (their private branch), without fear of "contaminating" their codebase with code they aren't allowed to use in MQO, etc.

Pavitra wrote:
The thing is, if changes are never signed over to Cyan, then that puts Cyan in an awkward position wrt MQO; and if changes are sometimes signed over to Cyan, then some developers won't want to do that and the codebase will fork. The remaining option is that changes are always signed over to Cyan, which requires a nonstandard, non-fully-open-source license.

I understand this concern, but I'm sure it isn't warranted. When you say "sometimes signed over to Cyan", you seem to imply that a developer is free to choose when to sign over. They aren't -- any code which they want to contribute to trunk needs to be signed. Don't worry about the codebase being forked -- if a developer decides not to sign his code over to Cyan, he has no choice but to fork. Then his changes won't be part of the game -- this is highly undesirable. Having the code truly fork off into a separate trunk requires a massive amount of work by a large group of very angry off people. It only happens in open source if people are really angry off, like when the company maintaining the trunk decides to pull it off the web and make it proprietary. In these very rare cases, the ability to fork is very important -- if we can't do that then we've lost all our hard work, and it was never truly open in the first place.

So, like nuclear missiles, the ability to fork is important in open source, even though we all hope we don't have to do it.

With this understanding, we don't need a non-fully-open-source license. That is how the FSF works. The FSF doesn't say "you may not modify this code unless you sign copyright over to us." They say "you can do anything you want with this code, but if you want it to be considered part of the project and not a tiny spin-off that nobody will pay attention to, you have to sign copyright over to us." There's a big difference. The Python project does the same.

Keikoku, I don't know anything about this Netscape Public License, but from reading the wiki, it sounds extremely controversial.

Wikipedia wrote:
This asymmetry with respect to rights has led to criticism of the license by many members of the open source and free software movements: the Free Software Foundation acknowledged it as a free-software license but one to be avoided, and the Open Source Initiative either rejected it entirely or was not ask to review the it. The FSF adds that it's not possible to combine software obtained under the license with software obtained under the GPL.

So this license is not considered open source by the OSI.


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 Post subject: Looking at the files
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:50 pm 
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If this is in the wrong thread feel free to move it.


Looking through the files in the Ki source i found something interesting... (it may be nothing) looking through the "linkingbookdefs.py" file i found a few listings of books that were to be (if i am reading it right) and two of them were...

[spoiler]
"CleftWithTomahna": ( 0, 1.0, 1.0, NoDRCStamp, BookStart1 + DRCStampHolder + LinkStart + 'xLinkPanelTomahnaDesert' + LinkEndPage + PageStart + LinkStart + 'xLinkPanelCleftDesert' + LinkEndPage ),
"TomahnaFromCleft": ( 0, 1.0, 1.0, NoDRCStamp, BookStart1 + DRCStampHolder + NoShare + LinkStart + 'xLinkPanelTomahnaDesert' + LinkEnd ),
[/spoiler]

If that is as I read it, maybe we were to have access to a certain surface area we all hoped for in the future?
[spoiler]Tomahna (the actual home of Atrus and Catherine?)[/spoiler]


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 Post subject: Re: Looking at the files
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Nope sorry.

[spoiler]The name Tomahna in Uru is used for the rainy Cleft.[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:37 am 
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oh ok shatter my hopes and dreams then :P lol


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Eat_My_Shortz wrote:
Keikoku, I don't know anything about this Netscape Public License, but from reading the wiki, it sounds extremely controversial.

I wouldn't say "extremely". Some people will rant about anything, but most people seemed to understand the rationale, and considered it reasonable given that Netscape was providing a complete product. The situation would probably be different if someone was attempting to use such a licence for a project which was in its infancy.

Eat_My_Shortz wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
This asymmetry with respect to rights has led to criticism of the license by many members of the open source and free software movements: the Free Software Foundation acknowledged it as a free-software license but one to be avoided, and the Open Source Initiative either rejected it entirely or was not ask to review the it. The FSF adds that it's not possible to combine software obtained under the license with software obtained under the GPL.

So this license is not considered open source by the OSI.

AFAIK, OSI were never asked their opinion. I'm aware that OSI approval matters for certain hosting sites, which is an issue that Netscape never had to contend with. Cyan will need to consider this if they want to use such a site for hosting.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:28 pm 
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What is the best Python editor? I primarily spend my time doing Java work in Eclipse or C++ work in Visual Studio 2005. My first couple of years have been pretty heavily focussed on those langauges and I'm feeling the need to grow.

As a second point, what sort of uru related projects are going on at the moment?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Stevecrox wrote:
What is the best Python editor? I primarily spend my time doing Java work in Eclipse or C++ work in Visual Studio 2005.


Eclipse makes a very nice Python IDE as well with the use of PyDev.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Stevecrox wrote:
What is the best Python editor? I primarily spend my time doing Java work in Eclipse or C++ work in Visual Studio 2005. My first couple of years have been pretty heavily focussed on those langauges and I'm feeling the need to grow.

As a second point, what sort of uru related projects are going on at the moment?


As a bit of an old school programmer vi or emacs is best ;)

However I prefer IDLE for python, this is bundled with python its self. IDLE is easy to get started, it is really simple and allows you to get familiar with the syntax, you can grow from that pretty quickly to some IDE later.

The tandom python console is pretty sweet as well for testing code as you write.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:34 am 
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If you're accustomed to Eclipse, using a Python-version of it would probably be a good idea. I use Komodo Edit for Python a lot when I'm in Windows.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:38 am 
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Had anyone tried to have a look at the accent bug ?

From what I see, when typing, we're using ISO/IEC 8859-1 (because windows says so), rather than than utf-8 that is exepted later.
What i'm also anoyed with is the keyboard layout being wrong. Can't type such things as !

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Stevecrox wrote:
As a second point, what sort of uru related projects are going on at the moment?

Some active coding projects are found on http://uru.zrax.net/hg/ (and being discussed on the GoW forum, which is generally a good place for such questions because it’s where many of the programmer types tend to hang out).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:46 pm 
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EowynCarter wrote:
Had anyone tried to have a look at the accent bug ?

From what I see, when typing, we're using ISO/IEC 8859-1 (because windows says so), rather than than utf-8 that is exepted later.
What i'm also anoyed with is the keyboard layout being wrong. Can't type such things as !

I'm fairly sure that both of these issues are in the main client execuable, so no-one will be able to do anything about them until the client source code is released.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:25 pm 
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Keikoku wrote:
EowynCarter wrote:
Had anyone tried to have a look at the accent bug ?

From what I see, when typing, we're using ISO/IEC 8859-1 (because windows says so), rather than than utf-8 that is exepted later.
What i'm also anoyed with is the keyboard layout being wrong. Can't type such things as !

I'm fairly sure that both of these issues are in the main client execuable, so no-one will be able to do anything about them until the client source code is released.


Someone needs to ask for it ...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:11 am 
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i posted this and no one has answered yet.

MercAngel wrote:
error missing python files

KIHandler
OptionHandler
OpeningSeqHandler

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