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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:26 am 
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Right, sorry. Moving here.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:09 pm 
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Eat_My_Shortz wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
There are only two criteria which any serious evaluation should use: Legality and Stability. Not "best of" not "consensus." Two questions people would ask themselves during any review.

Does this violate the Terms of Service? (obviously to be changed to allow code modification)
Does this crash the game for a person who meets the system requirements?

Anything more than that is only there to create drama and nonsense.

Whoa ... you're suggesting that every single change which is legal and doesn't crash the game should be accepted outright? So I could write a patch which immediately unlocks all Relto pages, or make star-wipe transitions on all Ki screens, and we shouldn't have a debate about whether those changes are worthwhile? (Someone in another thread suggested we add Facebook and Twitter integration into the Ki ... surely we should think twice before we make such a feature!!)

Much more so than normal open source "software", Uru is a game. Therefore, each change needs to be finely questioned for gameplay and aesthetic. In other words, adding a feature into a video editing tool is probably a good thing; adding any random feature into Uru will and should be met with a lot of skepticism.

One thing I do not want to see in the first month of open source release is Uru immediately contracting a million useless bells and whistles, just because someone things they are a good idea.

Throw up as many strawmen as you like, this is the only solution I've seen that will work. Even more than Ages, code needs objective standards, not subjective "do we need this" nonsense. I'll spare you the same sort of strawman examples you subjected me to, but it's safe to say that you can ask "do we need this" for any feature.
It is not a sign of a competent community if we still think that we can find "consensus." Particularly if we try to find it on a forum like this one with such a small active population. I have still not seen a competent counter to those criteria (because there is none).
Take Firefox Add-ons, for example. No one asks whether an add-on is necessary because people universally understand that's a stupid thing to ask someone. Again, there are numerous examples I won't subject you to.
In short, YES everything that meets those two criteria must be allowed. Don't enable it if you don't like it and stop trying to dictate what people do.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Whil is right. Even though it seems to be this dreaded "NOT LIKE SECOND LIFE!" thing going around, allowing anyone to add anything without question is acceptable *as long as they can turn it off* which is where I believe is the strong dividing point in these fears of horrible things coming, and keeping uru the way you want it. However, to get back on topic. I think that for now, in the beginning, anything submitted to Cyan should focus on fixing not adding. It's important to do that because with a stable base, anything you add on top won't topple it all over. If down the line someone wants twitter in their KI, we have to make sure the KI is fully working first. Not only that, we have to have the systems in place to ensure someone who does not want Twitter doesn't have to have it on.

For now, I think Cyan's review process should be similar to that of bug reporting. Pair the submissions with the bugs and the feature request, find a method (private server, seperate Cyan server, etc.) to test the recent fixes before pushing it to the main server, and allow feature requests (new shiny things) to sit on the sidelines for the time being. In the future, those feature requests can be trickled into the testing system that is put into place at times when there are few working bugfixes available and allow time to give them a spin. (of course, not until switches are in place for those worried about too many shiny extras they don't want) A system of "DLC" (downloadable content) in place within the game (functioning much like the uru library manager) where you can configure things you want active would be handy for such things.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:22 pm 
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This debate seems to be getting confused between what I think Chogon asked in the OP, which is what mechanism should Cyan use to pull community generated code into its own Cyan maintained version of MOULa, and a debate about how the codebase should be maintained when it has been set free into the community as full open source.

I may not use the right terminology here 'cos I'm not a techie, but I think Cyan want to maintain their own code trunk, and I think they will want to control the development of it quite tightly to maintain its essential Cyanness. I think that's a good thing. They have relatively little resource to put into this, so need to work out the best way to harness the community resources to help them pick the most suitable upgrades, for which read probably the most popular and widely acceptable upgrades - the consensus. I think this is where Eat_My_Shortz is coming from. I think that's what this thread is about.

Once the code has been fully released for open source then I expect it will be forked and developed in all sorts of interesting, exciting and probably controversial ways, and I suspect that's where Whilyam's view will prevail.

So I think lots of the options in the thread are possible, but not applicable to both situations. Some people will only want to use the Cyan version of MOULa. Others will want to trip the light fantastic.

My view is that for the question I think Chogon asked, ie how should Cyan manage their trunk, they need to pick a DCVS, a team of experts, and set up, or allow others to set up, rehearsal/beta servers. The DCVS will probably be relatively uncontentious because most knowledgeable posters seem happy to propose their favourite and give reasons, but then say they don't much care - Cyan should just pick. I think the experts will be hugely contentious whoever they pick because there are lots of groups and individuals who will be disappointed if it's not them.

In the end, Cyan need to pick what they want, because this bit has to work for them. Whatever they pick, someone is going to be pee'd off. I think this thread allows us to put options before them and help them to make an informed decision.

Hard choices, Cyan. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but then I guess you knew that already :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Take Firefox Add-ons, for example. No one asks whether an add-on is necessary because people universally understand that's a stupid thing to ask someone. Again, there are numerous examples I won't subject you to.
In short, YES everything that meets those two criteria must be allowed. Don't enable it if you don't like it and stop trying to dictate what people do.


Firefox is a good example. Firefox has one of the most stringently-policed code trunks out there, with Mozilla arbitrarily ignoring submissions. In fact, whilst it's open source most all Firefox development is performed in-house by Mozilla, and they maintain total control of the featureset and development direction and pace. Here, take a look at what you need to do to get code into the codebase. In general terms it's pretty much exactly what is being proposed here by Eat_My_Shortz, and that's because it's the only open-source proceedure that works.

Extensions and such in Firefox are something that developers added in where it will allow within a limited scope users to turn on and off modifications to the system, but that's not a byproduct of open source development, that was something that the developers specifically added in to allow for user customisation within their set of rules, and required a massive amount of work behind the scenes to get functional. Coherent work run as by the proceedures above. Now, maybe someday there will be to a limited degree a similar system in MOUL, as there is in WoW via mods, but like WoW that is something that will have to be coded into a main trunk and restrict from doing anything that will break the server-client communication model in place. Something like that requires a lot of setting up - the arbitrary running of precompiled modules linking in to the client in a safe and nonbreaking way is a major project - and can only be done under the kind of system that Eat_My_Shortz is advocating. Remember, this thread isn't discussing mods, this is discussing the primary source submission.

I mean, think about what you're asking with your turn on/off source code thing here. You're basically asking that when someone wants to download MOUL that they'll download a massive amount of code with thousands of different patches to the same files, go through a codebase assembling a completed version, run a compiler and compile, and then connect to the server. Which promptly crashes because there are dozens of different codesets connecting to it. Mister Blue, you see, decided he liked kicking to be less strong than Mister Red, and now they have incompatable physics engines.

No, there needs to be a primary trunk and compiled version that is peer-reviewed with a coherent view to the future and engine development, and a server based on that reviewed version. Modifications to the code along the line you suggest will be available as branches to the trunk and there's nothing stopping you from downloading and compiling a branch if that's what you want and creating a custom server, but the trunk will be the canon version, the stable main game .exe that people download being compiled from it and the server being set up to talk to it. Otherwise things dissolve into chaos and the project disintegrates. Like a Gehn age.

Once that's in place you can start work on submitting a patch and getting it integrated that allows mod management for things that won't break the client-server model in place, and then once that's in everyone can go hog wild turning inconsequential things like twitter and ki colour on and off whilst the trunk continues with the kind of development its meant to that everyone will need to use if anyone is, like tweaking the physics or fixing out bugs or preloading relto.


Last edited by Bellerophon on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:18 pm 
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PaladinOfKaos wrote:
The "authority" you speak of is a myth. It simply does not exist in the GoW. We're a fairly loose organization.


This is true for the Maintainers, too. All of the elected Guildmasters have resigned. Most of them still post and continue to work on projects, and use the Forum as a place to gather and discuss, because the people who were the Guildmasters were always the most dedicated and active memers of the guild to begin with. But the structure is still there -- having been developed when the guild was popular and active -- and should the guild be needed to do the job Cyan had in mind for it, we could start it all up again in relative short order. Including elections of officers, etc., by the community.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:22 pm 
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Montgomery wrote:
This is true for the Maintainers, too. All of the elected Guildmasters have resigned. Most of them still post and continue to work on projects, and use the Forum as a place to gather and discuss, because the people who were the Guildmasters were always the most dedicated and active memers of the guild to begin with. But the structure is still there -- having been developed when the guild was popular and active -- and should the guild be needed to do the job Cyan had in mind for it, we could start it all up again in relative short order. Including elections of officers, etc., by the community.


Personally, I'd imagine that it'd be best to set up a new structure (Guild of Engineers?) rather than shoehorn code development into the GoW structure. Content creation and engine development are two very different things.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:26 pm 
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Bellerophon wrote:
Personally, I'd imagine that it'd be best to set up a new structure (Guild of Engineers?) rather than shoehorn code development into the GoW structure. Content creation and engine development are two very different things.


Maybe the Yahvo Committee? ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:27 pm 
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except, the GoW has been doing plenty of code development too, since... i dunno, the word go?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:33 pm 
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More fragmentation is not needed. There are lots of coders at the GoW, and that closeness between coders and artists is a Good Thing - it makes artist feature requests / "how the heek does this work" requests easier to handle.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
There are only two criteria which any serious evaluation should use: Legality and Stability. Not "best of" not "consensus." Two questions people would ask themselves during any review.

Does this violate the Terms of Service? (obviously to be changed to allow code modification)
Does this crash the game for a person who meets the system requirements?

Anything more than that is only there to create drama and nonsense.

One must also consider canon. This is hge, becuase it it the depth, subtlety and internal consistancey of the canon that makes Uru (and all of Myst) the place the community enjoys exloring.

Drama or not, I personally feel there needs to be some kind of filter to avoid material that simply does not belong in the Uru universe. There should be strict guidelines for how the process is handled, and the pool of individuals who make those decisions should be open to any who want to vote. The Guild of Maintainers may be the natural choice for this.

The way I see it, anyone wishing to submit new content would need to first submit their proposal with a signed Fan Created Art License (FCAL), and the GoMa would have the responsibility of making sure proposal violates none of the agreements before forwarding it to Cyan for final official approval. Cyan would count on the GoMa to eliminate as many submissions that could not work as possible, because Cyan will have a very limited ability to make these approvals. If someone submits a proposal for a change that interferes with game play or the community, there should be a way for the Maintainer volunteers to vote it out before it wastes Cyan's time.

My opinion. I may be dead wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:37 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
except, the GoW has been doing plenty of code development too, since... i dunno, the word go?


Python scripting in single-age sandboxes is very different from single-trunk engine dev, and has different goals. I'm not saying the two shouldn't be closely linked, but they're different projects and a clear deliniation would be useful. I'm sure there'd still be a large crossover of people.


Last edited by Bellerophon on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:38 pm 
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wasn't talking at /all/ about python scripting.

Do some research.

EDIT: oh screw it.

There is, for example.. a functional blender export plugin. (yes, python, no, not what you said.)

A very usable uru server, while not technically "GoW" it is some of the same users.

Several tools. for example, Plasmashop.

progress on MUd.... among other things.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:42 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
wasn't talking at /all/ about python scripting.

Do some research.

EDIT: oh screw it.

There is, for example.. a functional blender export plugin.

A very usable until uru server, while not technically "GoW" it is some of the same users.

Several tools. for example, Plasmashop.

progress on MUd.... among other things.


Ah, I'm restricting my point of view to the main codebase here. Not in terms of skills, but in terms of what kind of structures are needed to handle a very large number of people working on a single project. Full OS Uru will dwarf the contributor size of any of those projects. (I was referencing python sandboxes because of the way the ages don't affect each other, not because of the code type)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:45 pm 
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except that's probably the main thing happening. you're ignoring the facts, here =P


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