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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:01 am 
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Mod Note: This thread was split from My statement thread
BAD wrote:
It's good you let go of your intense feelings about Cyan. They are just a game publisher and don't deserve you wasting your energy feeling any real strong emotion about them.

They only need you to buy their products and help keep the business going. That is the best way to support the game companies you like.

If the people who worked at game companies were looking for adoring fans or bitter enemies, they would go into politics. :P



Generally speaking, you’re right. But we are talking of a game that Cyan wants to open source. This gives us responsibility.

If we are unable to interact peacefully, if we fill the threads with fighting, flaming, bickering, and contemptuous comments about naivety of other people’s posts, I’m afraid Cyan will not be encouraged that much.

I can’t talk for them, of course, but they may think we are going to tear their game to pieces, each of us pursuing a different – and conflicting – vision.
Peace.


Last edited by Clat on Sun May 16, 2010 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Clat wrote:
I can’t talk for them, of course, but they may think we are going to tear their game to pieces, each of us pursuing a different – and conflicting – vision.

While none but Cyan can speak for Cyan, we can pretty well know what they may reasonably think. In spite of several people claiming Cyan doesn’t tell us anything, they have been reasonably communicative. Once their intentions are stated they don’t say much until they reach the next milestone or they change their minds. Also, they are never very detailed, they never state what is obvious to them, often the labeling they use is ambiguous, and I think they have enjoyed being deliberately cryptic at times and giving some things an IC twist. Problems come up when someone wants something that’s in a different direction than Cyan is going or they try to force Cyan to do or say something. Problems come up when we over analyze things too.

I think we can reasonably be sure they have a good idea what fans will do with Open Uru. Someone will likely make a Purple People with Red Ponytails shard with dragons and vampires, just because they can. Since that is unlikely to be the only shard, it won’t be the end of the world. Since they can’t force their ideas on others, we are free to experience it or not.

Someone else will make a shard that is strictly canon, another will make a ‘corrected’ canon where story problems are ‘fixed’, another will make one that… etc. etc.

Cyan may well continue to run a Cyan shard that sticks to their idea of canon that most fans will consider the real story. The fan ages that Cyan adds to their shard will take us to places and directions I suspect even Cyan cannot imagine.

None of these things will tear the game apart or destroy the fan community. Giving up control is scary for many people. But, control is an illusion. There are already Myst styles builds and Uru like places running in various game systems. None of those are destroying the game. They upset some people. The behavior of those people upsets more people and that upset upsets others and so on. The real problem is not what people do with the game. It is how they try to control each other and the game.

In many social settings the concept of “Haters” is used. The Urban Dictionary gives a good definition. One may not like playing with the Lego Myst builds. I’m one that is not interested in playing or building in that style. But, I do think it is creative. I’m glad they like building Myst style stuff that way. I’ll help out, if I see a way to make a positive contribution. The same if someone builds a Myst area in Blue Mars… well… I might be into that build.

However, there are those that are threatened by those builds. Often their fear comes out in ways many would label has a hater’s style. The odd thing is, Uru carries the reputation of the Game that Won’t Die. There is nothing to fear. I doubt Cyan is worried… amazed Uru has revived this many times; yes… worried we’ll tear it apart; no.

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
None of these things will tear the game apart or destroy the fan community. Giving up control is scary for many people. But, control is an illusion.


Surely “Tear apart” is excessive words, but then you came to my rescue, describing vividly, with perfectly appropriate words, the possible sad end of a good game, drowned in a swamp of purple skins, dragons and vampires. All these products of total freedom (which is no less illusory than total control) will simply dilute Uru’s charisma. How much damage dragon and vampire will do, it’ll depend by the number of these “Uruish” shards. But who knows, perhaps they’ll be not so numerous...

That said, I don’t hate anyone and I’m not scared by lack of control, or by anything related to an online game (and, saying it nice, I don’t need cheap psychoanalysis).


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:46 am 
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(Apologies for contributing the OT)

I agree that "tear apart" might be excessive, but:
Nalates wrote:
None of these things will tear the game apart or destroy the fan community.

How can you say that? There's nothing in your post that explains why not (as far as I can see).

A multitude of shards, each one with a different "style", may well shatter the community into fragments; it could make it even harder to spread information, gather people to events, take part in a story with more than a handful of people involved, just to name a few examples. I personally don't remember the Untìl Uru period as one of bliss and cooperation among the community.

This said, I'm sure that Cyan is considering the thing seriously, and I trust that whatever scheme they come up with will be sensible enough.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:01 am 
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These things will not tear apart the community.

In case you weren't aware, this community is /already/ fragmented, and has been for many, many years. =)

Again, none of those things on individual shards will kill uru, or hurt the community. Please, do not scaremonger in this topic, do it elsewhere if it so pleases you, but, not in this topic.

EDIT: oh, and btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-khcmxFWWk <-- if it was going to hurt uru, it'd already be hurt. =)

Yet, the same people did this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puoxy4J34gU <-- one of my favourite uru videos, ever. =)

Don't be afraid of the freedom, embrace it, you never know what good might come of it. ;)

Mod note: Removed one phrase in first line that was no longer relevant after splitting the thread


Last edited by kaelisebonrai on Sun May 16, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:40 am 
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Exactly. All communities are fragmented, being composed of individuals, but they remain communities as ours has done, and often the greatest irreverence goes side by side with the greatest passion in one heart. The best jokes spring from love (a fact some of our modern comedians seem to forget) and I look forward to the diversity that will spring from opening up Uru to the boundless creativity of the fans.


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:51 am 
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Sorry Kaelis, I didn't mean to "scaremonger", especially not in this thread. But please don't blame my not-so-optimistic opinions on fear. ;-)

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:50 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
EDIT: oh, and btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-khcmxFWWk <-- if it was going to hurt uru, it'd already be hurt. =)

Omigawd, I love that video! Er, I mean... Blasphemy! :P :wink:

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
All communities are fragmented, being composed of individuals, but they remain communities as ours has done

Yeah, that. The best thing we can do for the Uru Community is to acknowledge and accept our differences of opinion and learn to discuss and debate (not argue and berate) those differences with respect for each other. It's not what you say and do, but how you say and do things that matters. And, I think this brings us back on topic.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:50 pm 
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*sees thread on topic...then derails it*

Sorry but I've been thinking this for a while and I really want a chance to mention it. I know when I hear the word shard I get nervous now I'm an open minded guy and I know this anxiety is largely unfounded, but I never experienced the whole D'mala thing. And the only way I could really feel comfortable is if there was a Cyan shard as well . So that way there could be the anti-Yeesha Shards and the Anti-DRC shards, and the people who want to rewrite the past shards, and they would all be cool, but I would also have the Cyan Shard which I want my work and ideas to be a part of. Not that the other shards wouldn't be interesting and I wouldn't want to visit them, because I would. So that's just a little bit why I get nervous at times, not so much that there would be new levels of Creativity but that there wouldn't be a place for the Cyan Story.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:05 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
These things will not tear apart the community, and I'd kindly ask to take this discussion, elsewhere.

In case you weren't aware, this community is /already/ fragmented, and has been for many, many years. =)

Again, none of those things on individual shards will kill uru, or hurt the community. Please, do not scaremonger in this topic, do it elsewhere if it so pleases you, but, not in this topic.

EDIT: oh, and btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-khcmxFWWk <-- if it was going to hurt uru, it'd already be hurt. =)

Yet, the same people did this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puoxy4J34gU <-- one of my favourite uru videos, ever. =)

Don't be afraid of the freedom, embrace it, you never know what good might come of it. ;)


Sorry, Kaely.
I disagree with you, but being this topic in some way personal, I can remove my posts, if you prefer, this included.


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Clat wrote:
Nalates wrote:
None of these things will tear the game apart or destroy the fan community. Giving up control is scary for many people. But, control is an illusion.


Surely “Tear apart” is excessive words, but then you came to my rescue, describing vividly, with perfectly appropriate words, the possible sad end of a good game, drowned in a swamp of purple skins, dragons and vampires. All these products of total freedom (which is no less illusory than total control) will simply dilute Uru’s charisma. How much damage dragon and vampire will do, it’ll depend by the number of these “Uruish” shards. But who knows, perhaps they’ll be not so numerous...

That said, I don’t hate anyone and I’m not scared by lack of control, or by anything related to an online game (and, saying it nice, I don’t need cheap psychoanalysis).


Since this has been moved to its own topic, I'd like to add my two cents, since I do feel rather strongly on the subject actually.

What Cyan has created is a unique world, beautiful, creative, and with tremendous detail in every corner. Even after seven years, I still learn about little details that are so close to realism, dare I say, to perfection, that my jaw drops open in awe. Others may not see it that way, and that is fine by me, but to me, URU's technicalities are absolutely amazing in every way, even now...

Anyway, thinking back of the UU days, it was great fun (and useful to keep a dead game alive, at the time) to paint our faces psychedelic patterns of green and purple, or use /skydive to get in places that are normally out of reach, have warp and kline wars, etc, but to me, that is not what I want URU to be all about.

Personally I shall seek the realism that Cyan put into place, and will mostly visit fan ages that do their best to carry on in this very spirit. Not saying there won't be room for diversity, but chances are those places are not for me. That video that was posted above is cute, I guess, in a way, witty too, and all that, but (to me) that is not what the future of URU should be about... it does not paint "success" or "progress", and speaking for myself, I shall not likely ever be visiting shards that proudly feature environments like that.

But I fully agree with Clat and others, arguing about what shall make URU a success (from both sides of the fence) is NOT likely to be helpful, no matter how convinced we are our own stance is the correct one... one thing I am sure of though. Constant bickering won't help, and I am absolutely adamant that telling Cyan they can take a hike, which I have seen at times, is never going to help no matter what. Whether we view this a shattered community or a close knit one (I think we are neither, and both), we're in this together! Don't we all want the best for URU?


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Will Open Source shards divide the community?

No more than the ‘communities’ are all ready divided. I say ‘communities’ for I see several not just one. I would think that most folks have long ago settled into their peer group communities. Yes there are new arrivals but not enough in my opinion make or break much of anything.

The diversity of the UU shards is what kept the communities together with a fair amount of the communities & shards working toward common goals. I see Open Source just continuing on what is already happening, not a whole lot of change.

[If this is Off Topic, :oops: Please move 8) ]
I do wonder what the real issue here is though.

Is it possibly that some of the more talented folks (those that actually can do something) will and or have gravitated away from the mainstream (Cyan’s shard & forum & control) and there will be little left to do something directly for the mainstream?


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Clat wrote:
Mod Note: This thread was split from My statement thread
BAD wrote:
It's good you let go of your intense feelings about Cyan. They are just a game publisher and don't deserve you wasting your energy feeling any real strong emotion about them.

They only need you to buy their products and help keep the business going. That is the best way to support the game companies you like.

If the people who worked at game companies were looking for adoring fans or bitter enemies, they would go into politics. :P



Generally speaking, you’re right. But we are talking of a game that Cyan wants to open source. This gives us responsibility.

If we are unable to interact peacefully, if we fill the threads with fighting, flaming, bickering, and contemptuous comments about naivety of other people’s posts, I’m afraid Cyan will not be encouraged that much.

I can’t talk for them, of course, but they may think we are going to tear their game to pieces, each of us pursuing a different – and conflicting – vision.
Peace.


Please don't quote me and then go off on a completely unrelated tangent. I'm glad this topic was split off as it had nothing to do with the original thread or my post.

This monster under the bed argument comes and goes in waves and frankly, I am sick of discussing it. We won't know how Open Source works or effects the community (communities?) until it happens. Worrying yourselves sick about it now will not help one bit.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:02 am 
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Clat wrote:
That said, I don’t hate anyone and I’m not scared by lack of control, or by anything related to an online game (and, saying it nice, I don’t need cheap psychoanalysis).

It’s odd you would think I was talking about you. If a shoe fits… but that is not what I was thinking or implying.

Simone wrote:
I agree that "tear apart" might be excessive, but:
Nalates wrote:
None of these things will tear the game apart or destroy the fan community.

How can you say that? There's nothing in your post that explains why not (as far as I can see).

Experience. We’ve been through this before. Like Sophia points out, we’ve done psychedelic patterns of green and purple. We had the flame wars of the UU era. Uru is still around and hasn’t changed much.

I also think it is also reasonably safe to predict by watching the community. We have seen Uru rebuilt in places where there is total freedom. Dozens of people are running Myst style builds. None of the tragedies everyone predicts are happening. Dragons are not made part of the story. The areas remain PG and adult themes are avoided. The communities are split into private simulations, SL, OS, once upon a time THERE, and there are factions in GW, Team Fortress, WoW, Eve, etc. Places where it is possible to have Myst style game play and Myst looking areas pretty much stick with Myst style play.

We have people that won’t associate with the GoW or GoMa or OpenUru.org or any number of other forums. I can’t imagine how a community could be more divided. Simplerfi makes similar points.

Open source is not likely to do any serious damage or otherwise change things in respect to the community. The problems come from how fans behave, not what people do with the builds. We saw the same things in the Uru and D’mala eras.

What some people seem to miss is the underlying unity to keep Uru alive. Some cannot understand the ability of free people to bring order out of the chaos of freedom. It was the flight controllers that grounded all the commercial flights on 9-11 hours before it occurred to the governments. In floods and hurricanes those that provide for their selves have a much easier time than those that depend on the government. Individuals working from the bottom up usually come up with better solutions than top down solutions. I expect Open Uru to be better and the community to remain pretty much unchanged.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Sophia wrote:
Whether we view this a shattered community or a close knit one (I think we are neither, and both), we're in this together! Don't we all want the best for URU?


Based on a very long time observing, I think the answer to that is, in a word, --- no.


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