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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:27 am 
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@Nalates: as usual, you made good points although I don't agree with everything you wrote; but the thing is diverging from the main topic, so let's say I'll think about it for a while. ;-)

@Zander and everyone: no problem if you thought I'm a girl, it's understandable. In fact, living abroad, I'm used to being referred to as a woman even in ufficial documents. :rolleyes:


Back on topic: another reason I see for why the community is so fragmented and may become even more so, is the difference in attitudes towards Cyan, which is another aspect of the different attitudes towards story canon. For example:
Whilyam wrote:
More importantly, how do you expect people (who know more about this than you or I) to find the incentive to work when the ignorant are tsk-tsking them and asking what they've gotten accomplished with a length of rope and a branch? To support the game whose fans attack them at a whim? How would they find the energy to pursue developments when the closed minds demonize their work? How would they get up in the morning and work on this when they are met with such ignorant ungratefulness?

And yet work they do, with varying energy some days to be sure. Get up they do, and build the foundation upon which people like me get the easy job of forming worlds. They work through frustration and nonsensical code in spite of those who criticize without understanding for a second what they really do, in spite of those who selfishly mock them whilst using the fruits of their labor.

This quote, referring to the explorers' attitude towards the GoW, can be used almost word for word to describe some people's attitude towards Cyan.
But it was the people at Cyan who built the amazing pillars upon which we want to create our worlds. Saying that any group's vision must take precedence over Cyan's will always meet the strong opposition of part of the community.

Following Sophia's post: when we discuss about what to actually change in Uru (not often enough, I agree!), we sometimes find unexpected agreement, and arguments become very constructive. One just has to take a look at the threads about instancing, about redesigning the Cleft/Descent or the KI interface etc, to see that. Saying that each of us will find whatever they want in a particular shard is hiding the fact that we've been asked to take responsibility also for what changes to submit to Cyan - who are running the only MOULa shard we have at the moment. We have not only the chance to grow our pet Uru here - we have a chance to shape its face and its future. There must be a way to overcome at least some of what divides us, so that lots of shards won't be a necessity.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:42 am 
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please note, however, Simone, that while we have the source data, we have no license to do anything with it, (ki source and wave emote source), and as such, it is not at all useful. And certainly not "open source". I was initially very excited when it happened, but, without any form of license, its virtually useless. =/ (And, again, not "open source" in any way)

Before the plugin was released, the GoW was talking with Cyan about it... one thing that did come up, and continues to come up, was that even with the plugin, we don't really have a way to test anything, at least not in a way that is acceptable to Cyan, its legal, but its not accepted here, and we cannot discuss it. We also cannot discuss the only way to test things, even if we had an "acceptable" (to Cyan) way of doing what we do now. As we cannot discuss "hacking" UCC, we cannot discuss any testing of anything as there is currently no way to test anything without "hacking" UCC. At least currently.

So, if you ask "why hasn't anything been done?", there's a fairly good reason. Nothing can be tested, in an acceptable way for Cyan, or these forums. =) The 3dsmax plugin is also only usable in ancient versions of 3dsmax, that you can no longer get, and Cyan has asked us specifically to only use legal copies (perfectly sensible request, don't get me wrong), and as such those who can actually use the 3dsmax plugin are few in number.

MOULa, iirc, uses python 2.3, UCC uses 2.2 (?), again, another layer of difficulty testing. (Remember, UCC is the only way we can test anything, right now).

MOULa uses a different physics engine to UCC, more testing issues.

UCC lacks a few things in MOULa, such as PlasmaCameraLayers (i think that's the correct name), that are used, for example, in Dereno, and for K'veer's shiny flooring.

(Moderators, I hope this vague explaination of some difficulties testing is acceptable, after all, it is merely stating that that is the only possible way, and not explaining how anything is done, so I would not consider it the discussion of hacking, merely that it happens to exist, which it does, and denying that is kinda impossible, at this stage.)


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:02 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
please note, however, Simone
*snip*
if you ask "why hasn't anything been done?", there's a fairly good reason.

I was not asking that, and I agree with what you wrote (well, actually they're facts, so there's not much that needs to be agreed upon!); but thanks anyway for the clear explanation of the current situation! =)

I was only noting that, when we actually discuss what to do and how to do it in specific cases, the level of agreement and constructive discussion in the community is usually far higher than when we argue about matters of principle. ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:57 pm 
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It was me who asked that, (Sophia, and I am female both in avie and on the surface ;) ) and I thank you for your answers, Kai.

Reading this thread, I think Simone summed up my exact thoughts, and he worded it infinitely better than I ever could. However, we are not one and the same :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:54 pm 
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If things are done right, I think we will see four splits, and none of them will be harmful.

1) If Cyan keeps on top of the user-created Age scene, which I believe they will, then there will be a clear and solid path to adding the best content to the "main" Cyan shard. The Cyan shard will be "the place to be" and Uru will stay high-quality, with the same in-game feel that it has now, only more and better. All the best user-created content will be aimed here, for maximum exposure and fun. Once it gets here, it will become canon. Not to mention the occasional Cyan-produced material. :)

2) Role-playing groups in the mood to tell an imaginary story will start their own shards cloned off the existing material. Players who play on these shards will agree to some 4th-wall rules and a "storyline" that they probably read about on the group's website. These will be small but enthusiastic shards, but they won't get much unique content, becase (see point 1) the quality stuff is really hard to make, and those folks capable of making it will be aiming at a larger audience. But the "game masters" will finally be able to run their own storylines, with NPC appearances and all. This isn't a serious split, because a) these groups will tend to be relatively small, and b) most of them will also keep up their Cyan shard presence.

3) Dev groups and experimental gamer groups will run their own cloned shards so they can have superuser powers, etc. Dev folks will hammer very incomplete Ages out without having to jump through administrative hoops, and bored gamers will want admin powers for their avvies because... well, they're bored. But only small groups will be interested in this long-term, all of the dev folks will keep up their Cyan shard presence, and the experimental folks... well, they're mood-driven. Who can say?

4) Divergent developers will take the open-source framework and build their own games. And they'll find out it's really hard, but good luck to them! It won't interfere with Cyan's shard in any meaningful way.

The key to this is Cyan keeping on top of the user development scene so that their work can become part of the main game.

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Simone wrote:
BTW, please, everyone, I'm a guy, not a girl, although my name sounds otherwise to English/German speakers. =)
Oh! I'm used to the female French version ...


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:36 pm 
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vidroth wrote:
If things are done right, I think we will see...


"Right?" By what standard? According to what generative process? Back at the beginning, I responded:

Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Whether we view this a shattered community or a close knit one (I think we are neither, and both), we're in this together! Don't we all want the best for URU?


Based on a very long time observing, I think the answer to that is, in a word, --- no.


Generally things happen around here and elsewhere based on self-referential motivations. Rarely is it truely creative. Occasionally it can be revealing. Most times it is just very, very loud.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Simone wrote:
This quote, referring to the explorers' attitude towards the GoW, can be used almost word for word to describe some people's attitude towards Cyan.
But it was the people at Cyan who built the amazing pillars upon which we want to create our worlds. Saying that any group's vision must take precedence over Cyan's will always meet the strong opposition of part of the community.

(Well, I'm not a member of the GoW, though I do read and post over there.) In my opinion, the ones who had the best/most influence on creating what I loved about the story, were Robyn Miller and David Wingrove. Robyn no longer works at Cyan (for reasons you had best ask him about ;), and David never worked there. And People don't create Ages for Uru because it's the best platform for creating them (it really isn't at all), but because there's a nice feeling to having it integrated into the same world as other Ages, or because they want to share their Age with other Myst fans, or perhaps (to a lesser extent) some other reasons.

I won't talk about the attitudes issue, but to say that while sometimes there can be hard feelings without a good reason, sometimes those hard feelings are deserved. Whether that is the case for any particular case, is not the sort of thing that can be made clear to all by debate.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:59 pm 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
vidroth wrote:
If things are done right, I think we will see...


"Right?" By what standard? According to what generative process?


"Right" in the way that vidroth explained in the rest of his post. You don't have to agree with it (and I'm almost sure you don't), but he does make it clear what he means, which is always a blessing, I find.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
vidroth wrote:
If things are done right, I think we will see...


"Right?" By what standard? According to what generative process? Back at the beginning, I responded:

Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Whether we view this a shattered community or a close knit one (I think we are neither, and both), we're in this together! Don't we all want the best for URU?


Based on a very long time observing, I think the answer to that is, in a word, --- no.


Generally things happen around here and elsewhere based on self-referential motivations. Rarely is it truely creative. Occasionally it can be revealing. Most times it is just very, very loud.

I think people are misunderstanding the concept of "open source." Open source is not the wild west. Opening your source code is not the same as giving up control of it. Cyan will control the MOULOS content. Completely. (Unless they decide to expand that power to select folks). No matter what anyone does with programming, content creation, or even malice, none of it will go in the game unless Cyan is happy with it.

Someone with different ideas can fork the project and make their own crap-ridden version full of stuff no one but them likes, but no one has to play it. It won't be part of MOUL Open Source, it will be their own project that they have to advertise and distribute themselves; you won't end up there if you're looking for MOUL.

The open-source MOUL hosted by Cyan will remain something wholly approved by Cyan, and it doesn't matter one tiny bit whether everyone has goodness and light in their hearts or not. Those with something to contribute that Cyan likes will get their contributions included. The rest won't. OpenOffice is open source, but it doesn't mean someone can decide that the spell-checker should replace every third word with a swear word, and then laugh as the world burns. Open source doesn't mean everybody can just decide to change the product, and never has meant that.

With that in mind, I believe the four splits I mentioned in my post above will cover what will probably happen, and the world will be a good place. In my view, people whose ideas don't fit into one of the four splits are either a) malicious, or b) a bit full of themselves. Those that want a fifth split: "changes I want that the main Uru crowd gets to (read: has to) experience, whether Cyan approves it or not," are mostly type b).

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:38 am 
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vidroth wrote:
Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
vidroth wrote:
If things are done right, I think we will see...


"Right?" By what standard? According to what generative process? Back at the beginning, I responded:

Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
Sophia wrote:
Whether we view this a shattered community or a close knit one (I think we are neither, and both), we're in this together! Don't we all want the best for URU?


Based on a very long time observing, I think the answer to that is, in a word, --- no.


Generally things happen around here and elsewhere based on self-referential motivations. Rarely is it truely creative. Occasionally it can be revealing. Most times it is just very, very loud.

I think people are misunderstanding the concept of "open source." Open source is not the wild west. Opening your source code is not the same as giving up control of it. Cyan will control the MOULOS content. Completely. (Unless they decide to expand that power to select folks). No matter what anyone does with programming, content creation, or even malice, none of it will go in the game unless Cyan is happy with it.

Someone with different ideas can fork the project and make their own crap-ridden version full of stuff no one but them likes, but no one has to play it. It won't be part of MOUL Open Source, it will be their own project that they have to advertise and distribute themselves; you won't end up there if you're looking for MOUL.

The open-source MOUL hosted by Cyan will remain something wholly approved by Cyan, and it doesn't matter one tiny bit whether everyone has goodness and light in their hearts or not. Those with something to contribute that Cyan likes will get their contributions included. The rest won't. OpenOffice is open source, but it doesn't mean someone can decide that the spell-checker should replace every third word with a swear word, and then laugh as the world burns. Open source doesn't mean everybody can just decide to change the product, and never has meant that.

With that in mind, I believe the four splits I mentioned in my post above will cover what will probably happen, and the world will be a good place. In my view, people whose ideas don't fit into one of the four splits are either a) malicious, or b) a bit full of themselves. Those that want a fifth split: "changes I want that the main Uru crowd gets to (read: has to) experience, whether Cyan approves it or not," are mostly type b).


Many people have tried to make this point and it never seems to stick. Most of the time a five minute research of "Open Source" would answer many of people's questions here, however it seems it's easier to simply keep complaining or going on about how hackers are going to ruin Uru.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:03 am 
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BAD wrote:
Many people have tried to make this point and it never seems to stick. Most of the time a five minute research of "Open Source" would answer many of people's questions here, however it seems it's easier to simply keep complaining or going on about how hackers are going to ruin Uru.

This point never seems to stick even among those who claim that there should be no selection of fan content (Firefox-style add-ons, to make an example), that "what Uru is" can only be defined subjectively, or that fans have a better idea of what Uru needs than Cyan; the problem is more with them, than with "OS = H4X0RZ" irrational fears.

Moreover, Cyan has made clear that they cannot decide what they like by going through all the content submissions; they asked us to come up with solutions "peer-review style", and Teh Drama ensued. Therefore, while I agree that what vidroth described is the perfect-world scenario, there are issues with the definition of "what Cyan likes".

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Cyan will decide what Cyan wants on Cyan's shard.
I don't see Open Source being any different from Until Uru in the decision-making as to what people see on a shard.


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:07 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Cyan will decide what Cyan wants on Cyan's shard.

May I kindly draw your attention to Chogon's request. :-)

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Simone wrote:
Rusty_Russell wrote:
Cyan will decide what Cyan wants on Cyan's shard.

May I kindly draw your attention to Chogon's request. :-)

Yes, but that post includes "...and then the best stuff is what is submitted for inclusion into the next build of MOULa". I'd simply suggest that "submitted" does not necessarily equate to "accepted"; like Rusty_Russell, I'd fully expect Cyan to retain the final say on what goes into "their" build.

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