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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Simone wrote:
It's true that plot development under GT could have been better, but the plot we had during Prologue was amazing and exciting.

Well, I wasn't able to be there for that, but if I understand correctly the situation in Prologue was not exactly the same. Prologue was a beta, conducted on one server, with a ready population of gamers already there. (If I'm wrong on this, please do correct me.)

You are right, but I do not see why this should make comparisons impossible... I still think that the real difference between Prologue and MOUL is in a lack of charisma and interactivity (maybe also resources) in the MOUL story. Most of the Prologue drama happened without many changes in the actual gameworld - except a couple of barricades appearing and disappearing, and some smoke from the Guild Hall. The story at the time was powerful because it was well executed, and because the explorers cared for the characters and for what was happening. That's why I don't agree with your Myst parallel.

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Once that prearranged story has played out, the environment, as I said, doesn't lend itself to further story development. I know. I've tried.

What do you mean?

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We can mention "possible new Cyan content" in every post if we like, but as of right now, at CAVCON whatever we are, it's not on the cards. Any Cyan interaction we get, at all, is going to be an unexpected bonus. So we have to make our own stories, and hopefully at some point our own Ages, without their help. And that's not ever likely to be a thing lots and lots of people want to spend their time doing.

I mentioned "possible new Cyan content" (with a question mark) because I'm trying to be optimistic, but I agree with you that we have to work on Uru if we want continue enjoying the Cavern.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Simone pre-dates me in prologue, to have been part of the plot on Atrus. The only thing I know of it was that it played out in real time, as did early MO:UL before it went episodic.


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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Simone wrote:
Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Uru doesn't lend itself to plot. We all saw what happened in the Gametap era.

It's true that plot development under GT could have been better, but the plot we had during Prologue was amazing and exciting. I don't remember anyone complaining about the fact that "Plot" and "Uru" did not go well together, in 2004.

Perhaps your memory could stand a little refreshing . . .

Zardoz expresses his dislike for the Doug Sharper storyline.

Zardoz expresses his dislike for the Choose Sides storyline.

Cranky, aren't I? And this is from someone who was on the receiving end of one of the first "live" Prologue events, the return of Phil Henderson.


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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Zardoz wrote:
Simone wrote:
Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Uru doesn't lend itself to plot. We all saw what happened in the Gametap era.

It's true that plot development under GT could have been better, but the plot we had during Prologue was amazing and exciting. I don't remember anyone complaining about the fact that "Plot" and "Uru" did not go well together, in 2004.

Perhaps your memory could stand a little refreshing . . .

Ooops, thanks for the refreshing! I still feel like I've see many more complaints about the MOUL storyline than about Prologue, but maybe it's only because I've had more time to forget the latter.

@Rusty: I'm not sure I was on Live before you; my memories are really blurred about that. As far as I remember, I was part of the "clerical error", and I experienced most of the storyline just through the DRC forum.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:50 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Lack of excitement. […]
Lots of backstory. […]
No frontstory. […]
Okay, maybe I do prefer it small and private. Sorry. But even so, I would never "want to keep it" that way. I'd love to see it successful as it is. I just don't think it will happen.

Lack of Excitement – from what I’ve read excitement is not a feature that assures player retention not does it predict it. I haven’t played that many Facebook (FB) games but none of them had the ‘excitement’ you are describing. Have you found any data that objectively shows where ‘excitement’ fits in scheme of player retention?

Lots of backstory – I can think of several games that have practically no back story that do very well. I can think of some others that do. Doesn’t that suggest that back story is not a major factor in player retention and attraction?

No frontstory – I disagree with Zander on this one. I think we have loads of fan story being added. Our problem is in developing a way to deliver it to the majority of players in a non-burdensome way. But, that is a topic for another thread. I’ve seen no data to suggest that ‘front story’ is a major factor in retaining players or attracting them. Also I think games like Farmville show that no official story is needed for a game to be a success. I see front story as, at best, a minor contributor to overall player retention.

Keep it small – Some number of people do like Uru just as it is and would prefer it not change. The thing is, unless more people are willing to donate consistently, the game will never generate enough income to pay Cyan to develop new content. As the game is, it does not attract and hold players, other than some small percentage. While it is OK to want that, there are those that want more. On this subject it is just a matter of how we co-exist, which is another topic.

Simone wrote:
[…]The problem is that it takes many things to have a successful plot in Uru...
Resources […]
Rewards […]
Charisma […]
Interactivity […]
I would not make comparisons to FB, as they are bound to be very misleading […]

Resources, as in developer staff and funding, are not really part of the playable game and while one may be able to show a correlation to resources and player retention, I think the real measures are what is done with those resources, i.e., writing story, making ages, fixing bugs, building new content. These are the things players see and that affect retention. I exclude ‘resources’ as a criteria because all games have to have them to exist, like vacation resorts have to have air. It is so basic its not discussed. In terms of player retention its what done with resources that matters.

Reward and Charisma – These do contribute to playability. But do you have any information to objectively decide where they fit in the importance of player enjoyment and retention?

FB Comparison – If you doubt FB is good for comparison, where would you look for a comparison that is as successful? It's ok to be negative but to progress the discussion add a positive replacement. I think FB can be an ideal comparison because of the huge numbers of people enjoying and finding it useful. The games within it, like Farmville and Mafia Wars, are somewhat like Jalek and Heek, games within a game… sort of. What statistical data do you have that suggest what makes one popular and the other not?
====end quotes

While we can compare Prologue and MOUL or even MOULa, do we have any hard data to quantify what happened or why and move beyond one’s personal enjoyment, experience, interpretations, and opinions - the personally subjective information?

Better hair is a big factor for me. In the scheme of game development I am obviously at the center of the universe and it rotates around me. :) …don’t I wish. But, to KNOW what will improve Open Uru and keep the nature of Myst-Uru we need something other than my opinion of what makes great game play.

If front story is key and only Cyan can do it, aren't we doomed? Or as studies suggest the story is a lesser criterion for player retention then we can hopefully improve those 'other' things that are of greater importance and improve player retention.

My direction in the OP is based on the idea that we are no longer individual players enjoying something another is making for us. We are deciding the future of a game just as any game manager in any game company would. We can have great ideas for games and stories and features never thought of before. But, no matter what we dream up, it is still served to humans. If they enjoy it and find it fun and/or useful they will hang around. Our efforts can only ignore the basic facts of human nature, if we want to design for one’s self and an individual's personal preferences. Do we move beyond our personal preferences or are we stuck in them?

I will admit that if I could find a study that shows good hair for female players is the sole factor in game success and the better the hair the greater the success and that is convincing beyond question, I would have it all over the forums. Instead I am stuck with the fact that all the objective studies are showing good AV hair is a minor contributor to player retention and game success. :(

Our opinions mean very little to anyone other than our selves. The studies are not conclusive and the factors making a game successful or not, are many. But the studies are getting things into perspective and creating some scale of priority for all the factors. There is some social aspect of MMOG’s that has aspects revealed in the study I quote in the OP (Did you read it?). The number of times a person engages in chat within a game session and the number of exchanges they make with another player are the leading indicators for long term player retention.

The ‘transactions’ can be tracked in SL. But what exactly was being exchanged is unclear in the numbers. Also, what about information exchange? Like how to get over this or that barricade in Uru. That would fit the study as chat was encouraged and information was exchanged. I personally found learning and then teaching people how to make the balcony jump great fun. I personally relate the study to those events and it makes sense to me. The jump was a bug that many enjoyed. This study allows us to put that bug in a new perspective. It could be looked at as a major contributor to player retention.

If one uses the study information we can deduce things. If ‘jump-instructions’ were posted on the forum, that would decrease the need for in game chat and therefore affect player retention negatively. Providing information that a jump was possible would increase the need for chat and affect the need for in game chat. Anything done in game to improve the ability for players to communicate and make contact would improve what is now considered one of the major factors in player retention. The point being we have something beyond our personal opinions to base decisions on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:20 am 
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I would argue that for MOULa to succeed, it needs to be cool and people should know about it. Facebook, despite its privacy issues, is cool. Because of the wall, because of it's games, etc.

The problem with Uru is exactly resources. As long as Cyan doesn't use free labor (e.g. volunteers) to advance the story or finish Ages, we might be still here a year from now. I don't know about you, but I think Cyan could gather up some volunteers and give them a story to unfold during a number of weeks. Make them sign an agreement, and voila! Story!

I suppose if we could gather up enough funds for an ad campaign, and try informing people that there's more to Myst than Myst and Riven, Uru could see a userbase increase. Say, when Riven iPhone comes out and blogs like Engadget and Gizmodo and tech people like Leo Laporte (and his huge audience) report on it, jump in and try to promote Uru too. Exposure is clearly needed, look at how many people found out about MOULa from their buddies or news sites.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:54 am 
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Nalates, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Solitaire has no backstory, and lots of people play it, so that means Uru doesn't need a backstory? Chess has no excitement, and lots of people play it, so Uru doesn't need excitement?

No, I don't have hard data. I've just played a number of games that are broadly speaking similar to Uru, seen how popular they seem to be, and drawn conclusions from that. I'm not going to compare it with Farmville, or Tetris, or What's The Time, Mister Wolf? I may well be wrong, but I haven't seen anything to convince me. EVE, with lots of combat and competition, retains its players (well, except me). Uru doesn't. Second Life, with no backstory at all, seems to be retaining its players (again, except me: a pattern developing here?). Uru doesn't. And I'm very glad that fan story is being added, but is it being added to MOULa at the moment? Because that's where it's needed. I've seen a bit in the DRC forums, but as others have said, it needs to be in the game, and from what I'm reading, most players who comment are having the same experience as me; log on, find the place empty except for a couple of people talking about baseball or something, wander around a bit and log off again. I can make stories, but I need a bit more to work with.

If you compare all games, including FB games, casual games, card games, field sports and games you play with two pencils and a vat of treacle, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that no common factors exist that ensure player retention, because they're all different. If you compare other realistic 3D online multiplayer fantasy-based games, I think you'll see that those that succeed offer something different from what Uru offers, at which point there are two choices; change what Uru is to make it more popular (and possibly fail) or keep Uru what it is, and reconcile yourself to the fact that your appeal will be limited. I think we'll see both approaches tried when open source happens, and I shall be interested to see if I'm right or wrong about this.

EDIT: returning, belatedly, to your original post, and looking at the study itself again, I think your conclusion suffers from the same problem. Uru was not created as a social network. That was never its main purpose, as I think it was with SL. Uru was a continuation of the D'niverse in MMO form. If anyone comes to Uru, that's what they'll come for. A game. I don't think increasing the means of interaction and chat will attract new players--you'll just get the same small crowd with more ways to talk to each other. I also don't think "new content" will necessarily do it. Let's be honest, I don't think anything will do it in the volumes that people want. If SL is an apple, and EVE an orange, maybe Uru is a kumquat.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:53 am 
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I agree with Zander. I am not saying that we cannot learn anything from SL, but using SL and playing Uru are very different things, and people choose them for very different reasons. First of all, SL is not an adventure game. In a way, SL is much more similar to Facebook; its focus is more on social networking than on adventure and puzzles. But if people played Uru only for social networking, we would not need new Ages or new stories, but only a more functional KI interface. This is obviously not the case.

Moreover, the paper you linked, Nalates, while interesting, only states that interaction with others is a good predictor of user retention, i.e. the two things are statistically correlated. But correlation does not imply causation. For example, if I am on SL, and I like the look and feel of it, of course I'm going to have more interaction with other users, and I'm going to stay in SL longer, but the two things are not cause and effect.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:05 pm 
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There is one thing in common to all games that keep players: There's something to do. They aren't boring.

As a GameTap Uru player, I never got to see Prologue content at all, except through chat logs, summaries, and later the Great Tree videos. It was the least interesting way to deliver a story ever conceived: Have NPC actors deliver lines to whoever randomly happens to be on. If you weren't there, you get a "you shoulda been there" retelling and resent everyone involved. It's just human nature.

As it is, the cavern is boring once you finish the handful of puzzle ages. I finished Great Zero because it's there, but... picking up dots? Not exciting, often just frustrating. I'm now "done", there's no more actual game. I expect an average puzzle/adventure gamer can finish in 20 hours without cheating, I know it took me a lot less, even the first time.

A lot of the boredom in cavern would be solved by putting NPCs in there, who could give you quests and perform story events. Yeesha works very well at this. We all finish the Journey and end up wearing burlap sacks, because she TALKS TO US and GIVES US THINGS TO DO, and the DRC doesn't. I have zero sympathy or interest for the DRC because I've never met them, the only evidence they were there is abandoned tents and "safety" barriers keeping me from going further. Sharper wrote a half-interesting journal which got me to spend a while trying to shoot Shroomie (sighted but not close enough), but it's no substitute for interaction.

I spent over 4 hours this weekend in WoW, running errands, killing N enemies, collecting junk, building rep with various factions, and escorting people. When I led a prisoner out of a dungeon, and went to tell his sister he's okay, the experience points and reputation weren't the only or most important reward I got. That's what pulls me back in, not levels or killing things: The NPCs have interesting challenges for me, and I can do them and feel like I've accomplished something. Even when I'm "picking up dots" by fishing, I get some modicum of interest when I pull up a chest or random object, and sometimes those start quests, too.

For Uru, quests would take some time and effort to write, but far less than building new Ages. NPCs should be trivial, since they're just avatars with state machines that respond to private messages. Add some clickable objects that can be dumped in your private Ages (at worst, marker quests could be used, ugh), and you've got all the tools for collection, delivery, and text research quests.

Telling a story with puzzles was always the point of Myst. Quests would make that possible on the cheap.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Uru has a lot of problems.

I won't even try to list them all, but some of the notable ones are lack of content - you play a certain amount and then you run out of new things to do - and lack of players.

The two are very much connected. Without a strong playerbase supporting it financially, Cyan Worlds can't develop new content.

Without new content, Uru can't retain players for very long.

It's a vicious cycle that perpetuates the niche status of the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:25 am 
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In the dim recesses of time I read about a study which said that a predictor of staying in a multiplayer game was how soon you got to interact with a live person. If you had to wait until the end of a tutorial, that was too long. But -- really anecdotal evidence, from the dim past.

Along with the SL data (very interesting) it would be super swell if someone could analyze and report on data from other mutliplayer games -- WoW comes to mind since it has such a large population.

The thing about Uru -- one can say it's the story and the gameplay/puzzles, and maybe that's true, but even in the good days of Uru, there was so little of it, particularly gameplay. I don't know why people stayed, but I suspected it had more to do with socializing with friends in a beautiful world than with anything else, but hey, that's me. The parties were fun.

Total non sequitor - yes, I want great hair. In SL, I even paid actual money (not a lot) for better hair. In Uru, I'd like better hair, and I'd like it if the female avatar pants, shorts, and cropped pants didn't scream 2003. Why haven't I been able to update my wardrobe for 7 years? Was I trapped in a time vortex somewhere? The same goes for the tops.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:30 am 
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Well, that may be you, mszv. For me it was the world, and the world was the story, and the gameplay was the continuation of the story. Having friends there added a dimension of reality to the story, but without the story I wouldn't have been there.

And I too paid for hair in SL, once. Once was enough. More realistic hair in Uru would have been nice--a light sprinkling of grey at the temples instead of all black or all grey, maybe--but I wouldn't want to pay for it. As for clothes, well, I'm still wearing some of the same real clothes I wore in 2003, so the Uru clothes don't really bother me so much. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:54 pm 
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I think the greatest problem we have is that the Fan Created storylines have such little weight to them in your average players eyes. We are seen not a the movers and shakers of the Cavern but as people with too much time on their hands who are too into the game. However that isn't the way it HAS to be. The Relyimah Imager Incident and the Bahro Costume Incident showed that people want storyline but they also want it to seem 'official' and there are a number of ways to fix that.

1. Cooperation, right now there are plenty of storylines but most of us are 'going it alone' that quite often limits us, beause instead of the story living and growing it is dependant on when that person is online.

2. It needs to affect all of us, every Guild, every group. It needs to show that it isn't just an isolated incident but one for us all.

3. Minor Celebrities, Those explorers mentioned in Sharper's Journals, J.D. Barnes, Julian Lapin, Echo Mackenzie, Vincent Kingsley, Sidney Austin, and others. These people to some small degree are seen as 'blessed' by Cyan what they say is more Canon and usually IC. Having at least one or two of them involved in the storyline would greatly improve things.

4. Cyan's help, yes I know they are busy, yes I know they don't have alot of spare time or money. But as the Sub Rest Hood shows at times they are willing to be generous. We could ask for small things that perhaps Cyan could provide adding additional 'proof of canon' to our storyline. And maybe even a way to bring small peices of Fan Created content into the game.

I'm sorry if this took everything off topic, maybe I should start a new thread but I would like to know what you all think and perhaps if you don't want to reply here you could contact me in a PM.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:28 pm 
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To begin with, I belong to the family of lonely explorers, therefore socialization is only of secondary importance to me. Of course, I gladly speak to others or help them, but I never used MOUL as a 3D chatroom. This was one of the reasons why the rise and fall of Facebook was so quick at me: I gave a try to Farmville and a few other similarly childish experiences, but I've been very quickly fed up with the vast amount of pop-ups trying to force me "Let you know your friends that you have got now...". Not to mention such things when FB tries to force me to spend real money for buying and planting virtual avocados.

I entered the cave first time in August, 2003, during the first beta period. Uru Live had two reincarnations and now we have Moula, but technically Uru Live is the same as it was back in 2003/2004. For example, the KI interface has exactly the same bugs or shortcomings: you cannot multiple select players to chat with (all players of the Age or one only, all buddies or one only); in Aegura with many players, the players' list hopelessly scrolls up and down and after closing it opens immediately, just to mention two of the most annoying ones. The development of Uru started some 12-13 years before and now its present state corresponds to the decisions made at those times. But the main problem, as it has already been written several times here, the world is very small, the complete lack of variability, exactly the same few puzzles (in Wow there are hundreds, maybe thousands, you can vary them endlessly when advancing with different characters), no creativity (like building in SL or trading in Wow) so adventuring ends very quickly.

Uru has a definite charm and attraction to me, however, I feel that in its present state it's nearly hopeless. Even if it goes open source (when? I'm afraid that its time line will be similar to that of the promises of the long waited Book of Marrim) probably it will be the playground of a handful of Writers. This year in February I put about 50-60 ppl to my buddy list. There only 2 of them I see sometimes in the cavern.

Now, where am I wandering instead of Uru? Oddly enough, I found WoW is an excellent place. No, not for taking part in battles and combats. I always hated shooters. Wow has physically an immense vast land to roam and wandering around (hundreds of times bigger than in Uru all together). Struggling against the beasties and fulfilling quests is necessary to advance - but I try to minimise fight & combat. I never attack players of the opposite faction, never join to battle groups and alike. Instead, I gather plants and create potions and trade with goods (activity!) and sometimes I help newbies and last but not least I can endlessly discover new territories - a never repeating variety. I payed and played about 6 months out of the last one and half years and about two thirds of the realm of Wow is still terra incognita to me. Why the Uru team has not been able to create such a vast landscape as in Wow?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Zander wrote:
EDIT: returning, belatedly, to your original post, and looking at the study itself again, I think your conclusion suffers from the same problem. Uru was not created as a social network. That was never its main purpose, as I think it was with SL. Uru was a continuation of the D'niverse in MMO form. If anyone comes to Uru, that's what they'll come for. A game. I don't think increasing the means of interaction and chat will attract new players--you'll just get the same small crowd with more ways to talk to each other. I also don't think "new content" will necessarily do it. Let's be honest, I don't think anything will do it in the volumes that people want. If SL is an apple, and EVE an orange, maybe Uru is a kumquat.


I agree with Zander here that Uru was not created as a social network. Though my main experience outside of Uru has been SL, bit of Blue Mars and some very small time in Active Worlds the incentives and things to do in those places is certainly different.

Commercialism is certainly a large part of SL but it is not the sole reason people go there, though some do go in specifically for that. Building things or learning to build things is also a huge attraction. The idea you can 'make' something with immediate feedback is very nice and once you get the bug it is quite absorbing to do. For myself, I was not so much attracted to the building or commercial aspects of SL when I first got there. In fact I was turned off on the idea of building for pretty much my first year there. Selling something is not my thing...too much work, I was there to play anyway, lol. But the things I found to do that were worthwhile were some community things such as establishing the newsletter to keep the community connected. That required a lot of work going places, looking for interesting things to report and in the course, I met a lot of new folk and made new connections, and of course learned new things as well and even learned how to build finally. Today, I perform with a drumming troupe that performs live music in SL - that has been an incredible learning experience since I have no musical background. My news work has resulted in being offered a position as Marketing/Public Relations Director with the Frank Lloyd Wright Virtual Museum which has RL connections with the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation in Scottsdale, Arizona. I tend to have a lot of "what the heck, maybe I can do this" moments there where I just stumble into something and go for it. That is how I got into Burning Life and built vehicles for the Department of Mutant Vehicles during the last Burning Life event and from there, while test driving one of my vehicles, I rode into the Lamplighters camp and ended up working with them. (I still think it was the fact I was riding a snail that got their attention that day, LOLOL). Anyway, that can be the beauty of social networks. There are things out there to do, it is up to you to find them and utilize what there is or create an event or orchestrate something for others to do. Jandai is a prime example with her Crux Isle and the A&C Hotel events.

MOUL, on the other hand, I think people view that as a game that once you finish everything it is, ok, we are done with this, where is the new content to play, entertain me now.. It is more an ongoing puzzle game within a story line that is never suppose to end. We are limited in what we can actually do but we have also made our own entertainment within the context of where we were... Ah, I remember the days of crowning Vortmax Emperor of the Cavern in D'mala and crashing the servers (that was another great, oh what the heck, we can do this moment, lol) or a great wine and cheese party on the tent top to see how many we could get up there. Also the first Pod Party with music and a food menu for each pod which was absolutely incredible, insane fun. Even with the MOUL GT incarnation and we had the story line moving forward, we found our ways to participate. The Relayers were an outcome of that - a way to help others feel more involved. Though I do remember conversations about whether we relayed only main characters or any minor celebrities as we wanted to stay in canon for what we were putting out. I also remember folk following us all over the place when they saw us because they convinced we knew something was going to happen (no, we didn't - we had to do a lot of very fast moving and linking to pick up anything that was going on not to include typing like a maniac once we got there).

Yes, MOUL is a MMO extension of a game but I think we have turned it into our own unique social network, trying keep within the context of the D'niverse. Some are going to come in to do the puzzles and leave, some will want to play in character, others will be here because we happen to like each other's company and plan on hanging together whether here or other places (the fact that the most of the community has hung together for so long in and out of MOUL and that most of us survived the exile together says a lot for us as a group) the connecting factor here is MOUL and our love of the concept even if we have no idea still where it will go or if a story line will continue. MOUL is limited in a lot of ways because of what you can't do. If story line is important that could be the way to go until Open Source gets further along. I can see Cyan approved fan storyline moving things along and it could be meshed along with changes as Open Source gets going and there are other areas opening up to explore all again within an ongoing storyline.

The folk at Cyan have been incredible in gifting us with MOUL once again. I think it can survive even if it is a 'niche' style thing. It is definitely a kumquat in the apples and oranges world out there. But that is MOUL's attraction for many and trying to make it like the other places out there is probably the wrong way to go. We helped create a lot of the online mystique that it has today just by being here and developing our own community culture within the game. If making it a 'success' along the lines of WoW or Star Trek online is important to some, I really don't see that happening. As Open Source progresses, I see us moving to expand our 'culture' here in different ways. That may attract people, it may not. But I do know for sure in Second Life many, many know of us and our culture and we have become very recognizable as a group over there. You can bring up MOUL in conversation and folk immediately recognize it, so we have had an impact outside of MOUL. Many of us have the link to the main page to play in our profiles and I have had people tell me how tickled they are that MOULa is back. We might have our various factions, if that is what you would want to call them, who disagree on the hows, whats, wheres and whens of the progression of Open Source but the underlying connection with all of us, whether we are social or not in the Cavern or on the forums, is that we are a very unique community - we exist and will find ways to continue. I like being a kumquat...

_________________
Moula:
DMom2K KI 74181
GameBoomer KI 83122

SL:
DMom2K Darwin

Currently residing in Guild Wars2 with DudeDad and trying to play Watch Dogs
Citizen of the Metaverse and oh, yeah, The Dude abides....


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