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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:52 pm 
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I don't see that as any different from D'mala and the rest in UU.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:10 pm 
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Simone wrote:
Adhering to the rules and history of the fictional universe for which you want to create content is *not* a "superficial way" to restrict creativity. I wrote this many times in many ways... but if the history of western art is not enough for people to understand the relation between rules and creation, there's not much left to say on this subject for me.


I fully understand the difference of attempting to be creative in a land without rules (that makes it hard, but you're free) and a land with guidelines (somewhat easier, but not everything can happen). However, I also understand that a land with too many restrictions inhibits creativity. I was not implying that adhering to rules of the already laid out story is superficial. What I was saying is that shard owners may apply pointless restrictions on top of the ones already laid by the setting. Such as "nothing pink on Tuesdays, and only if your name is Stewart." sort of crazy things. I'm not saying either that it will happen, I just think that if there is a more unified set of guidelines and in a centralized manner that there is less room for detraction from the game and more room for innovation and that illusive creature creativity.

Also... the difference between Until Uru and now, is that, we have the chance to be together on one shard, not broken up. It is pointless to split us all apart in a technological world where it is now capable to not have the necessity for separate shards. We can still split off in our own ways, but we need a way based off of one centralized area. Which is why I think a system of one Cyan shard, that is able to connect to different data servers while being connected to the main one (one avatar over many shards essentially) would be the best route. Seamless integration from Cyan's world and our worlds, while allowing everything to be separate.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:34 am 
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the roadmap lives :)

not sure where people keep getting thatthe shards are going to be big seperate thigs like uu had. cyan has said more then once that what they want is the same as moul with the shards being fairly invisible to move between. gametap uru had several server "shards" and no one ever knew which server was hosting which age did they? the fans will host their own ages but not be a fully standalone server setup.

closets analogy I can think of is logging into steam to play a mmo. steam handles the login prefferences and other settings and the thousands of fan servers just Handle the individual levels for everyone that logged in thru steam. just change steam to cyan and that is the basic shard idea.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:40 am 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
...Creativity loves one set of rules for everyone. Not: Here's the creator's shard! . . . oh yeah and here's some others.


Even within the context of the rest of your post, this sticks out like a sore thumb and has been quoted a couple of times so I should ask what you are trying to mean when you say that "Creativity loves one set of rules for everyone."

That seems in opposition to anything like a truthful statement.

Show me a major contest where the organizer of the event is allowed to enter and I might consider your point. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air. As usual.

MustardJeep wrote:
not sure where people keep getting thatthe shards are going to be big seperate thigs like uu had. cyan has said more then once that what they want is the same as moul with the shards being fairly invisible to move between.

Not sure I care what your imaginary version of Cyan thinks?
Cyan has said they want to keep a "golden" version of Uru but let others maintain their own shards.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:44 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
Show me a major contest where the organizer of the event is allowed to enter and I might consider your point.

Er - the Olympics? Where the host country gets to design and build all the event facilities, and then compete in them?

The argument that Cyan not hosting a shard would save them money is not very compelling, as they have already demonstrated a willingness to spend money/labor on Uru with nothing in return. And the fact that Cyan's shard would be the proverbial 800 pound gorilla means that Yes, fan-run shards would be less well attended, but that is an expression of people's interests. You may condemn those interests as immature or closed-minded or whatever term you may choose, but Cyan's vision of that universe is what interests me and (an indeterminate number of) others. I'd rather find a way to integrate fan Ages into that universe via a Cyan shard and some sort of Cyan-fan consortium, as well as let fan imaginations run wild on other shards, than move forward into a Wild, Wild West of Uru Sandbox with an absentee landlord.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:52 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
Personally, I would prefer that Cyan not run their own shard and let interested players start up their own IC shards, etc. It would free Cyan of the costs of running a server and stop one shard from having an inherent benefit from the beginning.


I find this rationale to be curious.

If Cyan were not running a server themselves, wouldn't they be in a worse financial position overall as a consequence? With the Cyan-run server, donations to Cyan are flowing in from many players, and the CAVCON meter tells us that (at present) there is a net positive result with donations exceeding expenses.

If we drop to CAVCON 3, then there would not be such an obvious benefit to Cyan running the server themselves, but even then there still remains another reason other than "canon" to have a single server - it gathers the community in a single place.

I remember during Until Uru having to go to the "Who's Online" page and looking at player lists on multiple servers to figure out if a person I was trying to meet was online any of the shards. That was hardly optimal. At least now I can log into MOULa and either the person is on, or not; I don't have to hunt through 8 or more lists, and then make certain that when I start up the client that I am logging into the right place.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
Show me a major contest where the organizer of the event is allowed to enter and I might consider your point.

Er - the Olympics? Where the host country gets to design and build all the event facilities, and then compete in them?

True, but I mean a creativity contest. I would also point out that the host country changes in the Olympics.

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The argument that Cyan not hosting a shard would save them money is not very compelling, as they have already demonstrated a willingness to spend money/labor on Uru with nothing in return. And the fact that Cyan's shard would be the proverbial 800 pound gorilla means that Yes, fan-run shards would be less well attended, but that is an expression of people's interests.

That they are willing to spend money on Uru does not mean they wouldn't save money. Secondly, is it always really an expression of people's interests? Consider this forum. People still visit here because it is official, not necessarily because their interests are best served here (Age Writing, for example, is better done at the Writer's Guild forum).

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You may condemn those interests as immature or closed-minded or whatever term you may choose, but Cyan's vision of that universe is what interests me and (an indeterminate number of) others.

Cyan's vision may or may not be interesting to me as well (assuming that vision no longer includes drug-Phil or homocidal-Bahro or heavy Bahro influence period).

Quote:
I'd rather find a way to integrate fan Ages into that universe via a Cyan shard and some sort of Cyan-fan consortium, as well as let fan imaginations run wild on other shards, than move forward into a Wild, Wild West of Uru Sandbox with an absentee landlord.

I think an absentee landlord is what we have until Cyan has money. Also, is it just me or does the "Wild West" get an extra "Wild" each time someone says it?

Marten wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
Personally, I would prefer that Cyan not run their own shard and let interested players start up their own IC shards, etc. It would free Cyan of the costs of running a server and stop one shard from having an inherent benefit from the beginning.


I find this rationale to be curious.

If Cyan were not running a server themselves, wouldn't they be in a worse financial position overall as a consequence? With the Cyan-run server, donations to Cyan are flowing in from many players, and the CAVCON meter tells us that (at present) there is a net positive result with donations exceeding expenses.

That's true. However, Cyan itself has said that all donations go only to MOULa maintenance. Therefore, those donations have no effect on Cyan's actual operations (assuming Cyan is keeping to what Rand said).

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If we drop to CAVCON 3, then there would not be such an obvious benefit to Cyan running the server themselves, but even then there still remains another reason other than "canon" to have a single server - it gathers the community in a single place.

The single place is important, but that single place really depends on your perspective of Uru. For example, many who want to see fan Ages online have gone elsewhere (the rules forbid me from saying where). Now, what is their "single place?" Many I talk to haven't come back to MOULa if for no other reason than that there's no new content and they have no ability to help the game by developing the code (recent events have also further discouraged them). That other place is their "single place." There are countless other examples. The community is not all gathered in MOULa because some, for one reason or another, do not see MOULa as something desirable based on what has gone on recently. Cyan has generated a massive amount of bad will and sections of the community once held together by the promise of an open Uru (though I doubt they'd admit that now) have gone back to the worlds that accept them without attacking them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:28 am 
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There is no one solution that will make everybody happy. Those who want Cyan to step out and give Uru to the fans wont be satisfied by Cyan keeping their own canon going. Those who are only here for what Cyan has to say or do wont be satisfied by an Uru without Cyan. I fall into that second category and I believe that category is the majority. If a small number of people dont want to come back because Cyan isnt going to give the game away and step out of its development entirely then so be it. Personally I think its very unrealistic to expect such a thing.. not after Cyan spent the better part of a decade and over 12 million dollars in development.
Uru is a special place unlike anything else out there. If it becomes an open world without rules than what makes it any different from second life?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:50 am 
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Losehm wrote:
not after Cyan spent the better part of a decade and
over 12 million dollars in development.


Numbers are everything.....12 milllion? please explain..

We could set 3756 Bahro on top the hole in the Gulf and Sharper could use that aquatank and It's done.....

I'll still contribute....

I love this game....bwwwayyy

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:22 am 
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Charura wrote:
Losehm wrote:
not after Cyan spent the better part of a decade and
over 12 million dollars in development.


Numbers are everything.....12 milllion? please explain..

We could set 3756 Bahro on top the hole in the Gulf and Sharper could use that aquatank and It's done.....

I'll still contribute....

I love this game....bwwwayyy


http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-11-23-uru-debut_x.htm

That's 12 million in regards to the uru prime content. Not counting anything beyond the original Yeesha journey. I cant imagine the kind of numbers it would be including the expansions and live content added during gametap..

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:30 am 
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Whilyam,

If your wanting a Quote I suggest you ask your (GoW) forum admin if the Roadmap subforum is still there. Perhaps if it is you will be given access to the discussions that were held there but considering how you phrased the request I don't plan to dig for a years old thread.. Unless of course you would be so kind as to first quote your source? It is enough for me to say I was there and I find myself advocating today the same position I did then. Moderation, a distributed Server architecture under a single unified Cyan shard, and perhaps that there is room for stories in fan ages that the person that designed the level never intended or expected to play out in "Their" Age.

The MO:UL architecture is already geared to multiple servers grouped together as a single shard. It is a logical assumption that whenever servers finally happen (regardless of previous discussions) they will mirror this new design rather then the older UU one. I am sure some will prefer homebrew shards tucked away in closets and isolated from the mainstream and I respect their choice. But I am a child of the current era where I can rent server space load the game server of my choice, and be playing with 50 to a 100 friends depending on my monthly budget very quickly. Besides if Cyan works it right license fees will give them a few pennies for every server leased from a commercial game server farm.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:37 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
However, Cyan itself has said that all donations go only to MOULa maintenance. Therefore, those donations have no effect on Cyan's actual operations (assuming Cyan is keeping to what Rand said).


If I am understanding correctly, donations have no effect on Cyan's actual operations as long as we are at CAVCON 4 or lower. If we were to reach CAVCON 5 - and I'll admit I'm pessimistic about that, but it hasn't been ruled out yet so I must leave that it remains a possibility - then the money will go beyond maintenance.

The main point I was trying to make, though, is that concern about freeing Cyan from the costs of running a server is a non-issue because Cyan has been freed from the costs, via the donations.

Whilyam wrote:
The single place is important, but that single place really depends on your perspective of Uru. For example, many who want to see fan Ages online have gone elsewhere. ... The community is not all gathered in MOULa because some, for one reason or another, do not see MOULa as something desirable based on what has gone on recently. Cyan has generated a massive amount of bad will and sections of the community once held together by the promise of an open Uru (though I doubt they'd admit that now) have gone back to the worlds that accept them without attacking them.


I agree somewhat with what you're saying here. I believe there are some people who won't ever return, even if/when Cyan does begin bringing fan content into Uru. But, I feel you're talking about this issue as if it were more important than I believe it really is.

Some people are bound to dislike the opinion I'm about to state... but I think the people who've left permanently to pursue fan ages are proverbially small potatoes, and unimportant in the long term. I'm pretty confident that the majority of people who've left or idled have gone on from Uru altogether, to other games and worlds and communities. Sometimes, they check back in to see if things have changed. And eventually, due to the chronic slowness with which the MORE plan has progressed, many just give up.
That upsets me a lot more than a few people who've left because their impatience leads them to try to take matters into their own hands.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:22 am 
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Marten, you said exactly what I wanted to say.. As a personal observation, and this is just that, nearly every comment I see from Whilyam these days is in opposition to what the majority of fans want and expect. Those who've stuck around this long, at any rate.
Of the old guard .. the original community that developed during prologue and uu, very few remain. The current community shares the spirit and enthusiasm of the old guard though it is made up of mostly newcomers with a few surviving refugees from the original days sprinkled in. Whatever form Uru takes next will never diminish its ability to bring people together. That's what is truly important. We the fans, we the explorers new and old. We are Uru. This community.. this family of passionate fans could never exist without the immersion and atmosphere that Cyan has carefully crafted and nurtured to the best of their ability these past 7 years. The most interesting part of this world is that it's believable, it's tangible. That was always Cyan's intention from the company's inception. They never set out to make videogames, the set out to make worlds.
If you give control of the world to the fans then it's no longer a world. It's just another videogame.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:38 am 
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What Zardoz, Marten and Loshem said. :-)

@JeffeJ5005 : I'm afraid I had completely misunderstood your post. I'm sorry! I agree with what you wrote in your latest one!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:10 am 
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Ah, but Loshem, you have to have conflict in a forum, otherwise you can't have drama, and drama is what drives everything. Witness my curious restatement of what W said being transformed into "OMG Whilyam hates Uru!", a sentiment which not all the irony in the world could extract from what I actually wrote.

Do we need a level playing field? Okay, then every prospective shard owner develop his or her own worlds, own backstory, own proprietary software, own principal characters, and so on, and then everyone will be on a level footing with Cyan. While that would be tremendous, I don't think it's going to happen. Cyan are always going to have a huge leg up on anyone else where Uru is concerned. They created the universe, we just link to parts of it...er, hang on, I seem to be getting crosstalk from a different argument... :lol:

I think a level playing field is unrealistic to expect, and unnecessary in practice. If Whil is right, and unrestricted creativity can go on for ever making new and exciting things, then people will flock to "non-canon" shards and I will be left with egg on my face looking like a idiot. Fine. I like egg, as long as it's fresh. But I think shards that run under Cyan's "canon" and provide new content in line with that "canon" will also do well player-wise, and will also always find new and exciting things to do. And that's where I'll be.


Last edited by Zander_the_Heretic on Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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