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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:12 am 
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I joined the uru community during the d'mala period, as a user who used linux as his primary Operating System. (if you're curious, iirc, at the time, I was using Debian (sid/unstable). I loved it. Sadly, I left before MOUL happened, or, really, before anything much was certain, there was /hope/, though, and lots of it. I took Cautious Optimism to be my maxim, at the time.

Unfortunately, as I said, I left. This was for technical reasons, and others, mostly, I didn't want to switch back and forth between linux and windows all the time, and I didn't have much luck running Uru in Wine, if I remember correctly.

I then spent two years (or so) doing art-related things in the open source game development community.

I finally came back to Uru, on Jan 14th 2008. (or there abouts, pretty sure that was the day), because I'd been checking out my old pots stuff, and I was hoping to do models of places in D'ni. I somehow heard MOUL was around. So I joined, went in as a vistor for one day.. and.. the next day? I signed up. I'm from Australia, so I really only got Uru from my subscription, and I paid more than the normal subscription.

Well, everyone was waiting for Season 2, and.. I wore the Cautious Optimism shirt (and I loved that there /was/ that shirt, too, it made me smile) almost all the time. I met the woman that would eventually become my fiance, and a made some good friends, too.

Well, we all know what happened in feb that year -- the announcement came, MOUL was going to close.

It did.

I stuck around, mostly, for the next two years. =)

I was still close with old friends in the open source game dev community, so, when Open Source Uru was announced - I was esctatic. I'd been really hoping that it'd happen, for a long time, infact.

There was so much hope, and activity, and... well, it was glorious. We thought we could improve things, restore things.. make things better, for everyone.

Some didn't understand what open source meant, and some still don't.

Some fear it, some don't trust it.

But, the thing is, open source is about freedom. The freedom to /choose/ and be yourself. The freedom to adapt, to change, to modify, to learn, and to redistribute.

I don't think /anyone/ is asking /anyone/ to go to a shard that does something they don't agree with. They're just asking that shards exist, and the owners have the /freedom/ to do what they choose to do. And this will, infact, benefit the community as a whole. =) Don't think for a minute that because there are multiple shards, means that someone will log into just the one single one. There's room for everyone in the future of Uru.

But, one thing to note: Prologue's Uru makes me think of a grand time of Uru, makes me open my mouth wide in awe of the world, and the rich background... MOUL's Uru.. makes me wonder "They released this?" There are notable flaws in MOUL, and they stick out like a sore thumb to me. I wonder why they did the things they did, to the canon, to the setting... Why the bahro war happened.. Why all neighborhoods are now "Bevins", why the great zero book is in D'ni, which is /impossible/ according to canon before moul, because that would be a link to the /same/ Age, from within the Age. A *big* no-no in canon. Why yeesha's abilities are more magick now than just "different rules". I used to think of them as.. just being a different set of rules - we didn't know them, but they were still /rules/. Now, they're just a catch all explaination for /everything/ that doesn't make sense. "oh, yeesha did it" "oh, the bahro did it".. That's not good storytelling. And.. Minkata? The Pods? Jalak? These Ages.. they're not as amazing, and wonderful as the 'hoods, Ae'gura, Teledahn, Eder Kemo, Eder Gira, The Cleft, K'veer (which was ready long before MOUL, the collision data is even still there in ucc!), Gahreesen, all these older things... And, to the best info available, the people who /made/ these wonderful things -- They don't work at Cyan anymore.

But.. the people who made Cass, Bimevi, Maw, Fens, Fahets, Toroolbah (and others!)... They're around, but you won't see their content in MOULagain, right now, though. And they're the hope I have for the future. You don't have to visit Ages you don't like.. just.. don't complain that they exist, because they're our best hope for an Uru that works.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:07 am 
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Dont forget that Cyan was forced to come up with a story to replace the one they had already told in Myst V. Or the fact that Gametap forced Cyan to make changes to Uru like having the player start on Relto.. it's very possible the GZ link is a result of what Gametap wanted and that it will be fixed when time allows. Another thing to note in regards to the smaller less-ambitious Ages released during Gametap's season 1, the development costs for the older Ages were in the tens of millions and theres no way the budget during gametap was anywhere near that. Also add to that the fact that most of those old Ages were developed over the course of 5 years some even longer (there are old images of Teledahn hidden in Realmyst which was released in 2000) What was released in season 1 was made very quickly by a very small team. Only Negilahn was in the original plans for Uru and even that is unfinished. There were and still are plans to add all of the creatures seen on the image in the museum.

The bahro have to be antagonistic if Cyan is to finish the story they started to tell. At a certain point there was intended to be a couple of groups surrounding central characters and their treatment of the bahro and the restoration of the city. Yeesha is only one of these central characters and her shirt was representative of the choice explorers would have had to make eventually. The Bahro were freed at the end of Myst V so rather than breaking their established canon and reintroducing the bahro slowly as was originally planned, they chose to come up with a conflict in order to make some of the bahro into a threat again.
Everything that was done was done for a reason. They're still trying to tell the same story.. There just isnt the time, staff, or money to do it yet. Fan Ages were an unexpected result of growing technology and our incredibly diverse community. Back in 2004 when Uru was supposed to take place it was completely unheard of to have fan-produced content in a game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:23 am 
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I'd never complain that the fan Ages exist. There are a couple of new ones, Ashream and Neolbah, which look great, and Ashream at least seems to have both a backstory and a puzzle. This is indeed the wave of the future, if it can only be made to work.

I would disagree that the bahro have to be antagonistic. We're still where we were at the end of season one; the only evidence we have for the existence of the bahro war is hearsay testimony from unreliable sources, the bahro's actions are still open to interpretation any number of different ways, and it doesn't take any mental stretching at all for someone like me to believe that it was all some kind of scam, maybe to get the DRC and the explorers out of the Cavern. (And they'd have got away with it too, if not for those meddling heretics...oops, sorry.) I suspect that if Cyan ever get to the point of continuing the story, they'll stick with it, because while I hoped for a while they were playing a more complex game with us, that hope has dwindled a fair bit, but there are still other options. (If I were right, of course, those fan creators who have run with the whole Nekisahl thing would either have to do some fast retconning, or proclaim that theirs is an alternate universe. I'd have no problem with that.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:42 am 
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I'm sorry, MJ, but servers don't determine what is or isn't a shard. The database does. Unless you have one global networked (Oracle) database you will have several shards.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:08 am 
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They have to be antogonistic in the context of the story. You arent supposed to know they are innocent because the groups that the players would ultimately have to side with all have different arguments in regards to what the bahro are there for. On one hand there's Yeesha who wants them to be set free, then there's the DRC who have their own goals separate from the fate of the bahro, and then theres group C who feel that the bahro should remain enslaved and offer the player certain abilities should they choose that path, not the least of which is the ability to link at will, though consequences of that decision would also show in a ruined crumbling Relto.. Unfortunately what we know of the bahro through Myst V was meant to be slowly revealed over the course of weeks or months and each group would give a very convincing argument as to why you should side with them. Then there were ultimately plans for a story ending based on which group had the most support and so we as explorers would ultimately decide how the story ends..

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Loshem wrote:
Back in 2004 when Uru was supposed to take place it was completely unheard of to have fan-produced content in a game.


Complete and utter tripe - I have several examples, but, lets start simple - DOOM.

Thank you.

EDIT: also, according to RAWA himself, negilahn's extra creatures were stripped out *because* they no longer fit the story. So, it is fairly safe to assume that, no, there ARE no plans to add them back in. =P

If you plan to add them back in - you don't strip them out, you just disable or hide them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:53 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
EDIT: also, according to RAWA himself, negilahn's extra creatures were stripped out *because* they no longer fit the story. So, it is fairly safe to assume that, no, there ARE no plans to add them back in. =P

If you plan to add them back in - you don't strip them out, you just disable or hide them.

Actually, this is what RAWA wrote:

RAWA wrote:
Negilahn - the concept was designed for the original Uru Live, and production had started when Prologue was shut down. However, the original design was to be a small space (one pod) but a complex, interactive ecosystem - so it was designed to be low impact on the modelers and high impact on the animators, wirers, etc., because we were going to need that kind of variety of workloads to balance the pipeline in Uru Live. But Negilahn wasn't even close enough to being done to consider putting in the expansions. Then in MOUL, with the "renegade Bahro", the Age was completely redesigned to incorporate the Bahro destruction and the other pods and puzzle surounding the pods was added. Most of Negilahn's original modeling survived the re-design, but it had to be completely rewired and puzzle elements added, etc. The lack of the original design for Negilahn's ecosystem was now a perfect story fit with the destruction caused by the renegade Bahro. How convenient!

It seems clear to me that the creatures were not stripped out because it fits the strory. They had not been implemented yet in the MOUL period, and Cyan thought this could go well with the destruction caused by the Bahro. But if/when the Bahro war ends, the Negilahn fauna may gradually go back to its pre-Bahro-war status (i.e. Cyan/fans may finally get around to wire all the animals etc).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Simone: that is not the post I'm referring to. =) Moving along. I'll go looking for it, when I'm not feeling sick.

EDIT: Hms, perhaps it was, if not, can't find it. My apologies.

However, loshem states it as a fact, which it clearly is not. =)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Loshem wrote:
There is no one solution that will make everybody happy. Those who want Cyan to step out and give Uru to the fans wont be satisfied by Cyan keeping their own canon going. Those who are only here for what Cyan has to say or do wont be satisfied by an Uru without Cyan. I fall into that second category and I believe that category is the majority. If a small number of people dont want to come back because Cyan isnt going to give the game away and step out of its development entirely then so be it. Personally I think its very unrealistic to expect such a thing.. not after Cyan spent the better part of a decade and over 12 million dollars in development.
Uru is a special place unlike anything else out there. If it becomes an open world without rules than what makes it any different from second life?

That's a lot of assumptions you have there.
1. You are still trying to marginalize opinions other than your own by claiming only a small number of people wan something. This is something the Chinese do, not Uru fans.
2: You also mis-represent what I and others are saying. You assume that, because Cyan doesn't run a shard, they're out of development.

Marten wrote:
Some people are bound to dislike the opinion I'm about to state... but I think the people who've left permanently to pursue fan ages are proverbially small potatoes, and unimportant in the long term. I'm pretty confident that the majority of people who've left or idled have gone on from Uru altogether, to other games and worlds and communities. Sometimes, they check back in to see if things have changed. And eventually, due to the chronic slowness with which the MORE plan has progressed, many just give up.
That upsets me a lot more than a few people who've left because their impatience leads them to try to take matters into their own hands.

Except it's not through impatience but abuse (like the abuse in this thread) and disappointment over the long-term that drives people to go off and find other areas.

Finally, most of Loshem's other points are wrong but I have an awesome D'ni location I want to model, I don't have the time, and I simply don't care. Note that this sentiment is rapidly spreading in the community. You can continue abusing people or you can work with them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:34 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
*snip* it's not through impatience but abuse (like the abuse in this thread) *snip* You can continue abusing people or *snip*

Please, please, let's try to avoid using words that are completely out of place and are only instrumental in exacerbating the tension.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:40 pm 
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please, don't take things entirely out of context. =)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:43 pm 
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kaelisebonrai wrote:
please, don't take things entirely out of context. =)

I was not trying to overdramatize... this would not be the first time that I see a thread collapsing under the weight of too heavy words. :-/

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:48 pm 
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no worries rusty; while a single cyan shard may not be 100% accurate it is what most people will see if the mechanic to move between servers is in game and more or less as seamless as just using a linking book.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:52 pm 
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MJ: I would suggest that that mechanic is both highly unlikely, and entirely wasteful, of time, energy, and Cyan's resources. And of *money*. =)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:06 pm 
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I'd like to remind folks that open suorce - truly open source - means anyone will be able to bring up thir own shard (depending on content licensing).

But... I'd also like to remind you of these two posts by Chogon concerning Cyan's shard:

Chogon wrote:
Ok, sorry. Some of the roadmap is more detailed than the average user would want and probably not detailed enough for the techie types.
The UruLive server is made up of many pieces. The idea behind this is a few of those pieces that run an age could run on an outside computer that is run by a fan. But all the pieces that deal with users, avatars, KI, etc. would only run on Cyan server machines. This would allow, for instance, a group of people more control over a particular neighborhood but not interfere with the rest of the ages.
There is still a lot of detail about this to work out yet, which is why it is a little vague at the moment.


Alahmnat wrote:
If front-end shard access is going to be seamless to the user, there's no conceivable way (in my mind) that a login-time UU-style shard listing would fit in with this plan. All of the sharding is invisible to the players and exists strictly as a series of hand-offs between various game servers as the player links from one area to the next.

And when I said seamless, I meant that the user would not have to do anything special outside of the game to get there. But I imagine that there will have to be something in-game (IC?) that would indicate that you are about to link to an age that is run and maintained by someone outside of Cyan... and then you can chose to put your hand on the book... or put you hand back in you pocket and walk away. Like I said... there is still a lot of these kind of details that need to be worked out yet.

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 600#262600

Chogon wrote:
...Also, the architecture of the MystOnline servers is a *lot* different than the Until Uru servers. The MystOnline servers are very scalable and with some open source programmer help, it should be possible to have one shard (shard is not really a good term here) that has many servers, spread over the world but to the user playing, it will look like just one big server. And it should be possible to make them safe and secure.
There still will be rogue servers created, which is fine. But with organization by guilds and other fan groups, and good information, UruLive can still be great place to live.

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 772#277772

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