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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:16 pm 
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I'd also like it in the cleft if there were people there, and all the puzzles were already done, but that's just me. Maybe keep one puzzle, I don't know.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:43 pm 
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The cleft really would be better as a multi-player area. It's earth, it shouldn't be instanced so you're alone! :P

I'd really like to see the Cleft fully restored, bridges up, etc.

As for puzzles, you could have the windmill routinely stick so people have to keep doing it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Maybe you'd need at least one other person to hold the barbed wire open for you to climb through. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:58 pm 
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As for an immediate intermediate fix to the relto start dilemma is to change the intro sequence to... the MYST intro. Relto book in void... open , viev panel where; float in over the clouds, soar up over the little island and land. Link in and be there. New iMysters will know they are in the right game, and then one may happen to enter the pillar book first to get into the journeys, or happen to go to the Bevin first. When the pillar book is chosen, then the Yeesha intro is shewn.

Besides, I do not need any major changes. I want a full RESET. As soon as the open source project gets it wings entirely, fans and Cyan should make that happen. Tweek has me fully convinced that this is what I want. The game restarted and made as it was intended as far as it is possible to recreate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Restore the beginning to the cleft.
Make the cleft multiplayer.
Provide some OOC guidance that players can read while they download the game. Actually, you could just show the information from the Uru:CC booklet along with some cool pictures of Ages. That provides all the info a new player needs without ruining immersion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:11 am 
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Ahnonay and Er'cana take the multiplayer puzzles out i think this was a bad thing to do they are not public ages.

making the cleft multiplayer ok but if you make it the starting point then no you have to put a cap on it just like the public city then you have new players not able to get into the game.

as for multiplayer puzzle drop them yes make it easier for multiplayers to solve but also make so some one sole can solve it. i think it is bad to make players have to do multiplayer stuff.

here is a big one make the game world more dynamic and real. ex when MOUL was live one day no one could get to the city as the DRC said there was a cave in some some kind when the city opened up again no sign of a cave in any where. you got some places you can not get to blocked only by a cone this is kind of unreal as a cone would not stop any one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:25 am 
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I don't like making the cleft multiplayer, just for technical reasons. You can't show everyone a different view of the puzzle pieces, so it would already have to be "solved". Having it revert to an unsolved state wouldn't help if two people were solving it together, especially if one person already knew what they were doing. They would ruin it for the newbies. Then it wouldn't make any sense at all.

The Cleft is supposed to be an introduction to puzzle solving in Uru. It's a pity that it blocks you from getting into the social aspect of the game, but the solution isn't to socialise the Cleft -- then you'll just annoy and confuse people who are actually here to solve puzzles on their own (believe me -- there will always be at least someone who doesn't want any help, and always be at least someone who knows how to solve it and will rush through). Especially since the Cleft would then be the only forced-multiplayer puzzle Age.

I agree (and in fact I suggested this myself a long time ago) that there should be an OOC option to skip over the Cleft if you don't want puzzle solving (doing this would give you a Cleft pillar in Relto so you can return later). That solves the problem of not being able to socialise from the start without filling the Cleft up with people.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:37 am 
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Starting in cleft + making it multiplayer - that's definitely my option.

I would even add a tent near Zandi truck, so It would look realistic in IC sense fro GoG members to hang around there.
Helping those who _would like_ help.

And since [spoiler]getting to Myst [/spoiler] requires now changing settings in projector, I thing that puzzle won't be in constant "solved" state.
And as Whilyam sad: after open source I guess we can make routinely windmill stick, hence there will be lack of power, hence projector will reset to default settings so people have to keep solving puzzles

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:15 am 
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Eat_My_Shortz wrote:
I don't like making the cleft multiplayer, just for technical reasons. You can't show everyone a different view of the puzzle pieces, so it would already have to be "solved". Having it revert to an unsolved state wouldn't help if two people were solving it together, especially if one person already knew what they were doing. They would ruin it for the newbies. Then it wouldn't make any sense at all.


Actually.. You can. =P


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:06 am 
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Making the cleft multiplayer is... quite outside the scope of this thread's purpose, since that's actually a fairly huge change with lots of details that'd need to be worked through and discussed and a lot of work put into it to make the change rather than a minor tweak to improve things. It'll take quite some time to multiplayerise the cleft, especially if you were to insert different people seeing different states. (Which would just lead to potential confusion. Not to mention you'd have to pull a lot of puzzles anyway just to stop seeingpeople walking through doors.)

But if we're gonna talk about it, personally, I don't like the idea of doing it... the lonesome, endless desert is one of my favorite environments, and it's not meant to be bustling up there. New arrivals are very rare. You should be alone in your journey until you hit the city.

I still think issues with it as single player can be covered by a 'skip tutorial' button where the relto book would normally be putting you in relto in single-pillar state. That'd let people go where they want.

In any case, for the moment (when that moment comes), whilst the idea of a multiplayer cleft gets talked about and then possibly worked on, something that will take quite some time, a return to single-player cleft start would be an improvement on Relto. Agreed?

vidroth wrote:
I strongly oppose "start in the cleft," at least as it stands. It is too hard by FAR for a new, non-Myst player to be forced to solve it before they can play the game.


Before? The cleft is the game. They're gonna have to do it anyway. And better that they start there than they stumble around the hood around not knowing where the start of the game is.

Plus Zandi will pretty much tell you how to solve the puzzles if you take too long and go back there, won't he? :p

Simone wrote:
Moreover, I don't think that enforcing the 50-person limit is a problem given the current status of MOULa


I was in the city just after it came up after that three-day down when the population was in the mid-40's. Trust me, the 50-person limit is definitely needed. A fair bit of serverside work is probably required before that can be upped.

A'na wrote:
I 'm afraid I fall into that group of gamers who enjoy being brain challenged. I don't want to see Uru dumbed down. There is nothing difficult about getting the KI. It requires exploration and discovery and a questing mind that seeks answers.


It's not meant to be, though. User Interface shouldn't be a challenge. Neither obtaining the Ki nor using it were designed to be puzzles, they just ended up being put in in a really obscure way.

Whilyam wrote:
I agree with all the suggestions here. One thing, though. I would have every new person get placed in either Bevin or Seret and people who wanted to go to the other hoods could. I'm not really fond of the idea of changing a million DRC (number) hoods with a million D'ni-sounding names.


I'm not saying we get rid of personal hoods or other public hoods that people can join instead, but one or two default ones isn't enough. Remember the server code can't handle more than 50 people in an instance, and with hoods because the books lack the ability to population check it has to constrain membership numbers. Whilst that's something that should be fixed that'll take quite some time.

B'ni Rabbit. wrote:
My suggestion is to have a book on the second bookshelf with just enough explanations on where they are, what and where a Bevin is, the orange pillar outside the hut, what a KI is and where to get it, written in IC, with a hint of OOC, all written in concise simple English which will give the "What am I supposed to do now?" newbie a direction and purpose, at least enough to get started.


If we jig things properly then this isn't necessary. If the pillar is open then it's obviously the location of the game puzzle. If you first time get to a Bevin through the Nexus and we rename Bevins to Neighborhoods then it becomes quite clear what they are. If you get sent straight from Nexus to Ki-Gahreesen to get the Ki then it'd make sense for there to be a notebook there next to the Dispenser telling you what this is and a few sketches of how to use it.

Rudolfson wrote:
Besides, I do not need any major changes. I want a full RESET. As soon as the open source project gets it wings entirely, fans and Cyan should make that happen. Tweek has me fully convinced that this is what I want. The game restarted and made as it was intended as far as it is possible to recreate.

ThedStranger wrote:
- Start in the cleft singleplayer, make your way to D'ni through the volcano (after you go through that-door-which-you-couldn't-open you immediately tranported to D'ni). You also have an option, once in the cave under the caldera, to transport you to D'ni right away).

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. I'll see you in 2085 when that gets done.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:54 am 
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Bellerophon wrote:
But if we're gonna talk about it, personally, I don't like the idea of doing it... the lonesome, endless desert is one of my favorite environments, and it's not meant to be bustling up there. New arrivals are very rare. You should be alone in your journey until you hit the city.

I still think issues with it as single player can be covered by a 'skip tutorial' button where the relto book would normally be putting you in relto in single-pillar state. That'd let people go where they want.

In any case, for the moment (when that moment comes), whilst the idea of a multiplayer cleft gets talked about and then possibly worked on, something that will take quite some time, a return to single-player cleft start would be an improvement on Relto. Agreed?

Hmm... no, sorry! :-)
Starting in Relto has a very specific benefit, i.e. letting people meet together as soon as possible. However, this was not accomplished in practice because of the puzzling intro, the ever-empty DRC(1000027) 'hoods, etc.
As much as I understand your point of liking the Cleft especially for its "deserted" feel, forcing people to go through a significant amount of solo gameplay before they can even start interacting with whoever in the Cavern, is not sensible in an MMO. It is also known to alienate and confuse newcomers.

Quote:
I was in the city just after it came up after that three-day down when the population was in the mid-40's. Trust me, the 50-person limit is definitely needed. A fair bit of serverside work is probably required before that can be upped.

Oh, it's good to know that the Cavern can be crowded even these days. Do you (or anyone who was there, e.g., when Rand showed up) remember experiencing any significant lag with 40+ people in Ae'gura?

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A'na wrote:
I 'm afraid I fall into that group of gamers who enjoy being brain challenged. I don't want to see Uru dumbed down. There is nothing difficult about getting the KI. It requires exploration and discovery and a questing mind that seeks answers.

It's not meant to be, though. User Interface shouldn't be a challenge. Neither obtaining the Ki nor using it were designed to be puzzles, they just ended up being put in in a really obscure way.

For once, I blame this partly on "lazy" new players: once you get to the 'hood there are clear instructions to go to the classroom, and then to grab your KI in Gahreesen (with a map showing where the Gahreesen book is); but it is true that you must ease people into the Myst philosophy of gaming.

Rudolfson wrote:
Besides, I do not need any major changes. I want a full RESET.

That's what I'd like too, in a dream world. But there's been so much story already, so much has changed since 2003, that it would not be possible to reset everything - unless you want to reset the game to 2003 (or whenever) but then unfold a storyline that is *not* the one that was planned in 2003. =)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:52 am 
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A reset is probably the most sensible course of action, to be honest with you, and it is fully possible the do the path down to D'ni.

The 50-people limit is not some engine limit, either... at one time, the limit was 100, and it can be handled better, etc, etc.

Also, Cyan themselves has implemented the people seeing different states (in magiquest, amusingly enough, which uses them same engine), and its honestly not all that hard. =P

No need to remove puzzles, but, I'm sure you can should you /really/ want to.

Again, the UI should /never/ have been a puzzle in the first place, so the KI should remain a puzzle argument is... highly annoying, and also highly stupid, in my opinion. It goes against every consideration of Game Design I've ever heard. = P However, let me state this clearly: In an MMO, one should NEVER have to solve a puzzle to get the main User Interface for the game. EVER. Regardless of the nature of the game being a "Myst game". (and only tangentially at that, I have to note.)

The idea is to make a good game, not to continue with the horrible flaws we have already.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:03 am 
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Belle, I don't think it is a long wait for a restarted version of URU. With Cyan support such a server is possible in the near future, if there is an interest. It is not the roadmap for the present MOULa I think.

Also I'm more interested in seeing the release of new made fan stuff, and the refinement of tools to make that 'easier', than the hunt to change every quirky thing about present MOULa.

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I would hesitate to call other other peoples experience and opinion stupid. It is, well, stupid ;p

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:31 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:48 pm 
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I would also like to see as restart, but not a complete one. Many people want to see the DRC and Yeesha completely gone, but I think they are good part of the game, if done correctly. I do want to change other things, for example, one of my "big dreams" is bringing back the D'ni linking rules and kicking out the bahro rules, but I guess it will be very hard to do right now.

Still, it is not too late, I believe. I am not afraid of a retcon, saying certain things didn't happen or happened in a different way- that's what a restart is. As long as it is a "final retcon", without any more retcons after it.

And the path to D'ni is actually very much possible, it's already built and playable (until the buttom of the shaft, and I don't need much more really). It can be an easy solution for communication problem- going to D'ni before solving the cleft puzzles. Than there's the fact that D'ni holds many books and deleting the puzzles of the journey (after all you didn't see Yeesha's message yet), and putting invisible walls everywhere you can fall (you don't have a Relto book yet) can take a lot of resources... so maybe the cavern could be limited to 'hoods and KI-instanced Gahreesen only, until you come back to the desert and solve the puzzle there (and you can't panic link anywhere in KI-instanced Gahreesen or in the 'hoods anyway, so that won't be a problem).

And as for "MMOs should be very user friendly", that's why I think Uru should be half MMO and not a complete one. But that's for another time :P

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