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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:05 pm 
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There was no threat - I left - Several things happened after that (in this, and other communities) http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... =10&t=4577 <-- this for example - and I decided that perhaps there was something worth returning for. We've been lied to - But no I can't tell you. I'd *LOVE* to, don't get me wrong. I'd /really/ love to. But I can't. As someone in this thread said - I'm telling you what I can. If I was able to say more - I'd /SAY/ it (and I'd really quite like to say it, infact).

This is not teasing of secret information - this is telling you that there is stuff you don't know about (and that you /should/ be told about) that I'd really like to tell you - but can't.

EDIT: As for Tweek...
I'll let him speak for himself.

Tweek wrote:
"Tweek uttered: "I build all my stuff by myself." And the problem isn't that Tweek does this, or that any other one person does this. It's that... it seems like most of the GoW works this way. Each of the developers is insular. "
heh, no one would want to work with me on my stuff
a. I'm anal about how I want things done. b. I'm very controlling over what I've created
c. I'm a perfectionist. d. even then I'm still not happy with what I've created
I'd drive people nuts
that and having to rely on others "where's this model I need..." "well..." why bother I can do it myself


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:34 pm 
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But, I'm going to be honest - Minkata is a /terrible/ age in my opinion. >.> - and after using that as an example against fan ages being high quality - (along with excessive use of the term "cyan quality" - a term that means nothing) I applied certain views to the speaker - wrong (perhaps) in this case.


Well that's your opinion.

I think we can compare, as I said over at that thread, Minkata to Cass. Both "Cyan (high) Quality", even though they have very few visuals.

But now we are getting Off Topic. Sorry :P

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
a. I'm anal about how I want things done.
b. I'm very controlling over what I've created
c. I'm a perfectionist.
d. even then I'm still not happy with what I've created

And I share all of these same traits with Tweek myself. And yet I'm overall very pleased with the job that he did helping design rel.to. That proved to me that Tweek can collaborate.

We all have things about ourselves that we need to work on. I'm hardly a social flower, and I have a difficult time managing my words so that I can get my point across to a person without offending them - but I won't get any better at it without experience so I keep trying.

Anyway, please consider that advice, and not that I'm telling people what they must do.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
The main problem I see is that the community seems to be polarizing. The two big groups I see are the "Cyan can do no wrong" camp, and the "Screw Cyan, we'll do it ourselves" camp. It's no secret that I consider myself largely in the latter group. The polarization is interesting... I don't actually think it's getting any worse, but the "middle ground" community members have more or less retreated to the shadows, leaving only the "extremists".


Except for me. And I recognize that those are the two extremes of a vast spectrum of opinions. I think Cyan can do a lot of things right. I also recognize that Cyan doesn't do everything perfectly...like the rest of us. And, that Cyan has limited resources so no matter their good intentions, there are limits to what they can do. And, on the other side...I don't want to wait for things to happen - I like to make things happen on my own terms. I'm full steam ahead. But I'm in the middle.

mszv wrote:
Let's assume that Cyan is never going to do open source Uru.


To me, it doesn't matter whether or not they do...because there's still work to be done no matter what eventually happens. If Cyan said "You know what...nevermind...we've decided to get rid of URU altogether"...would people stop making fan ages? What about the opposite? If Cyan said "You know what...nevermind...here's the source for everything with that license you want...knock yourselves out"...would people stop making fan ages then?

Development is moving towards open source. Period. Eventually we're going to try enough recipes that we'll recreate grandma's secret recipe for the most amazing cookies in the world. That cat is almost out of the bag. And Cyan knows this. If they sit back and do nothing and just watch - they know the natural evolution of things. They're not stupid! But they see the writing on the wall - and it says "Good god, how many different metaphors can OHB put in one paragraph?"

What's left, as I see it, is what Cyan's involvement will be in the future that's already coming. They've taken baby steps. And they're probably scared of what's going to happen. It could go either way in the end - and NO ONE knows what it's going to look like. Not anyone here, not anyone at the GoW, not me, and not anyone at Cyan. The only thing we do know is that change is right around the corner. So what better opportunity for us in the middle?

Let's look at this a different way. Let's look at the year, oh...let's say 2015.

*asks La Bamba to sing "In the Year 2000"*

URU is open source. On the back-end, the server has new capabilities which make it more stable, provide protections against access to unauthorized data, and stuff. On the front-end, we're all using a new client which is built to run on Linux, Windows 10, and Mac which is faster, more detailed, life-like, and stuff. We can even get into the cavern on our cellphones...and those of us with the right chip implanted in our brains can dream in the cavern too...and stuff.

*STOP* Right there...what do you see? What can you imagine?

I imagine Relto in 3D and being able to feel the wood grain on the Relto door. I imagine stumbling over a log then throwing it over the edge in anger. I imagine my bookshelf full of books. All the classics are there...including OHBot's pleasure age - Poletopia...and there's lots of other new ages - some created by Cyan...some created by those who took the time to learn and perfect the Art. I imagine using my new voice-chat-across-ages feature of my new KI - a wonderful blend of D'ni and Human technology. I also imagine that are no more emotes. No more /dance, /bow, etc. Instead, I can do what I want. If I want to slap someone, I can. If I want to hug someone, I can. And if I want to breakdance, I can. I also imagine that my closest is FULL of clothes. Really trendy clothes. Clothes that make everyone else go /wow (except they'd just go wow in their own way because there's no emotes). I imagine visiting the Kahlo Pub for a pint with friends...a weekly routine for me after the repairs were finished a year earlier.

But that's just me. What do you imagine? Seriously! WHAT DO YOU IMAGINE?

I think often we look at the short-term possibilities. What about the long term possibilities? Have radical ideas and share them. Some of them will be bad ideas...be willing to concede that. Some of them will be good ideas...be willing to have them replaced by an even better idea.


I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this...maybe I'll let someone else continue my thoughts. I just feel that sometimes we get so bogged down with the politics in here. And there. And that other place too. And through all the arguments - fan ages continue to be developed, hsPlasma continues to be improved, and robots continue to dance. I like to take time to smell the roses and remember the reality of what's going on.

Things are moving forward. Who will help choose the route we take?

Note: perhaps not all of this is entirely relevant to this thread. But I wanted to say it - so I did. Take it for what it is.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
Polarizing = paralyzing.

Leave out the tacky motivational poster quotes.

Quote:
If this community could ever come together, we could do amazing things - way beyond anything Cyan could do even if they had all the resources in the world. And, all it would take is people communicating intelligently and demonstrating respect for everyone even when they disagree. Then, no one would be afraid to post their ideas, and I'm positive there are people in this community who have good ideas, but are just too afraid to share them.

Tell that to the shrill voices demanding stagnation. We, the people who are actually producing things, don't need to hear we have good ideas, we know that already. I and others have spent more than enough time communicating intelligently and respectfully and have been met by nothing but silence by Cyan and abuse by their cheerleaders. There's a point at which people can no longer tolerate this and ignore their attackers.

Marten: People are not selfish because they don't want to spoil their Age. Just because you think it'll help doesn't mean Nye or anyone else should be pressuring others into doing so. In short: It's their choice, shut up and deal with it. If you want something done a certain way, try it yourself. But enough badgering other people to follow your way. I (and others) will collaborate when we feel like it, if we feel like it, and being called names because we don't fit your view decreases the likelihood we will do so. So I would suggest either being very quiet or doing some work yourself instead of turning your nose up at other people's work.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:45 pm 
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I like Minkata. A lot. Not just because I solved it with friends. I enjoyed that. It was vastly multiplayer without requiring multiplayer. And not just because it was the first age since a boxed Myst game that really integrated music into the puzzle. That was cool and the music was good enough to look forward to hearing by doing the right thing. The biggest reason I like Minkata is it was the first age in MOUL that felt like a bona fide Cyan Myst age and puzzle. We were plunked down with nothing but the environment to observe, explore and solve. And THAT is what really impressed me the first time I saw it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:57 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
It seems we had a similar discussion in the To Cyan thread which devolved into name-calling as usual. In that thread, Zardoz posted:
Zardoz wrote:
Mal-content they may be, but counter-productive? Hardly. Indeed, if GoW had been filled with the personality-type that acquiesces to Cyan at every step, I suspect it would have accomplished little. That's not a knock against Cyan, but a recognition that a little mal-contentedness can be productive.

This intrigues me - it makes the GoW sound like Rebels-With-A-Cause and it makes me want to learn more, but I often hesitate to post because I don't like getting blasted.

Whilyam wrote:
Marten: People are not selfish because they don't want to spoil their Age. Just because you think it'll help doesn't mean Nye or anyone else should be pressuring others into doing so. In short: It's their choice, shut up and deal with it. If you want something done a certain way, try it yourself. But enough badgering other people to follow your way. I (and others) will collaborate when we feel like it, if we feel like it, and being called names because we don't fit your view decreases the likelihood we will do so. So I would suggest either being very quiet or doing some work yourself instead of turning your nose up at other people's work.

Sorry, Tai'lahr, but I would like to withdraw my previous statement.

I agree with JWP up to a point, in that the Minkata puzzle was intriguing, but the story of Age itself was woefully underdeveloped. It's interesting to read OHB's discourse (a couple of posts above) because he focuses on the technical capacities of Uru that, if improved, would increase the immersion - a nice take on things. My own feelings, however, would be to focus more on stories. I'd like to see grand and mysterious things unfold in the Uru universe, but I've always been stuck with the barrier of having it unfold in real-time. I'm not someone who routinely logs into Uru, being pretty anti-social, and so I want those stories to unfold at my pace, not that of the real (Uru) world. In that regard, perhaps like the now departed Zander, I might fall into the camp of those who want Uru to be less of an MMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Except for me. And I recognize that those are the two extremes of a vast spectrum of opinions. I think Cyan can do a lot of things right. I also recognize that Cyan doesn't do everything perfectly...like the rest of us. And, that Cyan has limited resources so no matter their good intentions, there are limits to what they can do. And, on the other side...I don't want to wait for things to happen - I like to make things happen on my own terms. I'm full steam ahead. But I'm in the middle.


Great post, OHB :)

Quote:
Tell that to the shrill voices demanding stagnation. We, the people who are actually producing things, don't need to hear we have good ideas, we know that already. I and others have spent more than enough time communicating intelligently and respectfully and have been met by nothing but silence by Cyan and abuse by their cheerleaders. There's a point at which people can no longer tolerate this and ignore their attackers.


There are not so many "shrill voices demanding stagnation" as you may think there are. We need to fight those voices which exist. And it does not matter what once was. Many of us support the GoW, but even then it's hard to support when you are being called names, and treated as if because you are not a Cyan-hater and/or a Cyan-fans-hater (which comes with too much sarcasm, of course) than you are a believer of the blue lords. This is an arrogant behaviour. Again, not all writers are like that, but many of them do.

So in short, if you want to be popular, be friendly. And if you don't want to be friendly, than don't be surprised when you hear criticism from the middle-ground.

Quote:
I like Minkata. A lot. Not just because I solved it with friends. I enjoyed that. It was vastly multiplayer without requiring multiplayer. And not just because it was the first age since a boxed Myst game that really integrated music into the puzzle. That was cool and the music was good enough to look forward to hearing by doing the right thing. The biggest reason I like Minkata is it was the first age in MOUL that felt like a bona fide Cyan Myst age and puzzle. We were plunked down with nothing but the environment to observe, explore and solve. And THAT is what really impressed me the first time I saw it.


Agreed. And yet I also agree with Zander...non of the Uru ages really fit in the storyline. Even TPOTS didn't make much sense in MOUL, while it did in...TPOTS :?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Agreed about story, Zardoz. There was a reason I omitted praise on that aspect; just stating the things that impressed me. It was a Surveyors' training age (as I may inaccurately recall without doing due diligence), so the story went, that would have recieved more attention and detail in a "boxed" (better funded) game with an overall story arc.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Just because you think it'll help doesn't mean Nye or anyone else should be pressuring others into doing so. In short: It's their choice, shut up and deal with it. If you want something done a certain way, try it yourself. But enough badgering other people to follow your way. I (and others) will collaborate when we feel like it, if we feel like it, and being called names because we don't fit your view decreases the likelihood we will do so. So I would suggest either being very quiet or doing some work yourself instead of turning your nose up at other people's work.


Not all criticism is an attack, yet you unfairly characterize it as such. What you define as "pressure", I see as "offering advice and opinion."

I understand that after a while, a person can come to resent having to repeatedly defend the way they're doing things. But hey, that is life. If you don't like my opinion, you don't have to listen to it - you can ignore it - but wow, telling me to shut up? Now who's telling others how they have to behave?

Edit You know this whole thing, it has an interesting parallel.

Folks at GoW do their hacking thing, some people don't like it, and the GoW says, "We're trying to help, and we get accused of causing harm!"
And on the other hand, some people offer suggestions to the GoW on how they could do things better, trying to be helpful, and get accused of attacking the GoW.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Marten wrote:
I understand that after a while, a person can come to resent having to repeatedly defend the way they're doing things. But hey, that is life. If you don't like my opinion, you don't have to listen to it - you can ignore it -

Time out here. What you just said is 100% true. So we don't like your (not you) argument (the quality of which we won't get into here) and we ignore it and just build what we want to, right? Now what happens? One of the uninformed barges into the forum and calls everyone selfish for not talking about Ages enough! So what are we supposed to do now?

Quote:
Folks at GoW do their hacking thing, some people don't like it, and the GoW says, "We're trying to help, and we get accused of causing harm!"
And on the other hand, some people offer suggestions to the GoW on how they could do things better, trying to be helpful, and get accused of attacking the GoW.

How is it helpful to call people selfish? How is that a suggestion? Right, it's not and it doesn't. Saying "these Ages are nice, any way you could post more about them?" would be a "suggestion" (which would be quickly informed that, for the most part, the MOUL forums don't let us do that because posting about the Ages doesn't go very far until we run the risk of breaking the rules here). Contacting Cyan and asking them to reconsider their forum rules to allow discussion of Age creation tools would be "helpful."

Also, if Zardoz thinks the GoW is counter-productive now based on my statements, he should probably stick his head in the forums or the chat once in a while and see what actually goes on. People are developing Age creation tools, asking questions about how to make their Ages better, and thinking of ways to make Uru better. I don't see much understanding, respect, or appreciation of this.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Maybe it's because you don't want to see "understanding, respect, or appreciation". People won't appreciate the GoW, if many of it's members are unfriendly.

I'm not against the GoW here. I like their work and quite a few of it's members very much. And I think that people which are against all forms of modding are the thing we should go against. As well as people who are against Cyan no matter what they do, and against Cyan fans.

We need more people on the middle ground, I guess. I think this is how Uru will progress.

And yeah, I use the word "middle ground" too much :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:52 pm 
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ThedStranger wrote:
Maybe it's because you don't want to see "understanding, respect, or appreciation". People won't appreciate the GoW, if many of it's members are unfriendly.

I'm not against the GoW here. I like their work and quite a few of it's members very much. And I think that people which are against all forms of modding are the thing we should go against. As well as people who are against Cyan no matter what they do, and against Cyan fans.

We need more people on the middle ground, I guess. I think this is how Uru will progress.

And yeah, I use the word "middle ground" too much :wink:


Agreed. Completely. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:04 am 
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Edit: post deleted cause it's just not worth it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:16 am 
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Edit: post deleted cause it's just not worth it


I saw it Tailahr, and it was totally deserving - but I can understand why you say it just wasn't worth it. Is there an 'Ignore' function on the forum like there is in-cavern? :)

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