So long, Bevin...

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:03 pm

Erik wrote:

Makes you wonder why Cyan never changed it. If it was so easy to fix, they probably wanted it to be Bevin, although they have never been able to give a proper reason why Bevin would be better.

Perhaps they were hoping to replace it with a D'ni word for neighborhood, but just didn't have the time or couldn't seem to find an appropriate word.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:16 pm

Rand was not directly confronted with the issue until vid cornered him during a visit to the Cavern. Rand didn't see it coming, and vid hit hard.

In the OpenUru.org hood, in fact.

Things might have been different had this little by-chance meeting happened with a production staff available during MOUL. But this was MOULa with no staff to really handle production. There are many such small and big changes on the potential list, including, of course, working on Open Source, and not much justification for the development and realease of a new version. Why do these if the fans were going to be able to do it "soon" anyway and there are other priorities? Let the fans have fun doing it.

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:30 pm

JW, it appears you're suggesting that issues aren't addressed unless Rand himself is directly confronted with them. We know the MOUL production staff was aware of it because it was discussed on the forum, the ResEngs were often confronted about it by vid, the Objection event was held on the Great Stairs, AND we submitted tickets on it. So, why didn't they make the change back then? Is something different about the code now that makes the fix easier when they don't have the resources to do it? Or, did Cyan not want to make the change during MOUL, and if so, why not?

dragossh · **Joined:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:39 pm **Posts:** 517

My guess: they were more concerned about new content than fixing the current bugs. And since MOUL needed content to make money, that's where their priority was. For MOULa, JWPlatt's reasoning sounds pretty good to me. Or they are waiting for the mythical major bugfix/content release that'd also include the Minkata sparklie.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:08 pm

Good questions. But did Rand ever hear about it? Also a good question. And in all that time, was the great force that is vid ever given a face to face, in an IC situation, with a character who was in control of the issue and would have to respond? Mr. Laxman comes to mind because he was in charge of the Lattice, I think, right? Did anyone get the chance to speak about it directly to the DRC? That is what I was told by Greydragon would be most effective (and of course, the DRC was reknowned for being difficult to reach). In fact, until Rand acknowledged the problem after speaking with vid - in the Cavern - the movement was difficult to push through the larger community to get taken seriously, despite the support vid found in his inimitable style.

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:23 pm

IMO, there could be a few reasons:
1) the fix isn't as simple as it appears and we'll soon find out if making the change affects other as-yet-unknown areas;
2) they simply didn't like the word "neighborhood" either because it was too long & awkward in code-writing or because they preferred to create a D'ni word to replace it, but couldn't find the time;
3) a combination of the above.

Nye_Sigismund · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:36 pm

Alternatively, you have the fact that in small development teams the little bugs never get squashed. They go to the bottom of the pile.

JWPlatt · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:51 pm

Tai'lahr wrote:

1) the fix isn't as simple as it appears and we'll soon find out if making the change affects other as-yet-unknown areas;

That's entirely possible. I don't know the Vault well enough to be sure, but it's conceivable that if "Bevin" were a dependent value, changing it midstream could mess up some things. Simple inconsistencies can cause problems if the code is not generalized well enough. You don't always know, or don't catch, what your programmers depend on in their logic, especially when you're trying to meet an imminent deadline. If it were "Hood" from the start, it is less likely there would be a problem. But in any case, it's much more than just editing a constant in the code. You have to invest significant time to make sure all these questions are researched, validated, and changes tested before you release a new build to a paying public. Even a little word could cost you dearly. For an example of what can go wrong, remember the Mars Climate Orbiter that disintegrated in the Martian atmosphere because one team used English units and another used metric? Easy fix, both measuring systems are valid, but not enough integrated testing.

D'Lanor · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:09 pm

This patch would work for new neighborhoods (and fresh new vaults obviously), but not for existing neighborhoods. Once the age instance name is written to the vault you are stuck with it.

Existing neighborhoods on MOULa would have to be patched within the vault, either manually one by one :shock:

or with a server script.

Geert · **Posted:** Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:50 pm

Tai'lahr wrote:

IMO, there could be a few reasons:
1) the fix isn't as simple as it appears and we'll soon find out if making the change affects other as-yet-unknown areas;
2) they simply didn't like the word "neighborhood" either because it was too long & awkward in code-writing or because they preferred to create a D'ni word to replace it, but couldn't find the time;
3) a combination of the above.

Some of the answers can be found in the chatlog made by whilyam during Rands first visit to MOULa in the GoG hood march 28th 2010.
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20504&highlight=chatlog+0328
Rand confirms that Bevin is the wrong name. He suggests Hood and later as a joke Ho'od. Lack of manpower prevents the fix.
Also the ordering of the hoods in the nexus is part of the discussion.
Hope this clears som historical data reference.

Theremin · **Joined:** Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:47 pm **Posts:** 65

I wouldn't really consider this a bug, though, so I can see why it didn't get "fixed". Granted, even if Rand or others admit it was named incorrectly, it would be as if some object had a different color. It wouldn't affect gameplay or cause anything (that we know of) to crash.

beebee · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:54 am

lunanne wrote:

but..but.. what about the people who prefer "Neighbourhood", the "neighbors" in the game is already so ... ugly(imo).

Agreed, but I know we're a minority!
I prefer 'bevin' because it's not a word for anything on the surface and 'hood' makes me think of gangsters ...

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

beebee wrote:

lunanne wrote:

but..but.. what about the people who prefer "Neighbourhood", the "neighbors" in the game is already so ... ugly(imo).

Agreed, but I know we're a minority!
I prefer 'bevin' because it's not a word for anything on the surface and 'hood' makes me think of gangsters ...

Bevin is, however, a specifc neighborhood in D'ni. A single.. specific.. neighborhood.

It isn't a word for anything other than the name of a specific place. Just like "Boston" or "New York" or "London" aren't a word for anything other than specific places.

So you don't go around saying "I live in a New York" You say "I live in a city, called <city name here>"

Saying "I am a member of a Bevin" is exactly the same as the "I live in a New York" example. =)

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:02 pm

I really, really think we need a D'ni word that actually means neighborhood. If we just replace the word "Bevin" with "neighborhood," some people are still going to believe they're interchangeable.

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

Tai'lahr wrote:

I really, really think we need a D'ni word that actually means neighborhood. If we just replace the word "Bevin" with "neighborhood," some people are still going to believe they're interchangeable.

They'll be wrong though. We /really/ /really/ don't need to use a D'ni word. The Nexus was translated to english by the DRC, why would they use the /d'ni/ word for a type of place, like "neighborhood", they certainly don't use a D'ni word for "city" in "city locations" for example... Why would they use a D'ni word for "Neighborhood"?

So long, Bevin...

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