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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:47 pm 
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What would get me in the cavern more, well 3 things. (2 serious ones) Firstly like Marten, a Cyan driven story is top billing. Second some well made fans story driven ages with well thoughtout puzzles. Third I wish, na never happen. It had something to do with getting on and a common goal. :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:59 pm 
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@ Stucuk, the Overture Physics video is a good example. I missed it on the first pass. How the avatar would look to others around it as it moved things is a big factor in immersive games. I also think it would require lots of core changes in Uru. I’m not convinced that such a feature would improve player retention. But, it might increase player interaction and that would improve retention.

Team based play is a part of the motivation in Facebook games. I know when I drop a game I have a concern about the other players I’ve been supporting. So, that could probably be a significant factor in Uru player retention.

Real time age editing… I can only see this in an offline version of the game. As I understand it, all the objects in an age are identified objects and contained the game files, which are downloaded before an age renders. Uru has no process for adding to an age after it has initially rendered, which is why any group building in real time is highly unlikely.

Better content could help player retention (nice pumps). A shopping mall ala SL Market place might work. Setting up a shop in Ae’gura might get one lynched.

@aloys, I can understand your points. I can respect your level of participation based on your preferences for Uru. That you see Uru as a role playing game is an important consideration. I suspect my appreciation of Uru as an RP place does not show that much. I think more RP’ers make for better RP and spreads the load of training new RP’ers. I think we have different hopes for Uru as to player numbers but similar for style.

I agree, for RP immersion is important. Heek and other mini-games-in-game could be an RP help and help with player retention. I think anything that gives players something to talk about will help.

Consoles… iPhones… Uru in single player may make it someday. May be like the original with an online component.

Visuals are an odd item when one looks from the retention viewpoint. Great visuals will attract people. Like a photo album. But, they don’t do much for player retention long term. We don’t look through our photo-albums every day, week, or month. Minecraft is doing well with what I consider poor visuals.

Money, whether Cyan has totally moved on… I speculate they haven’t. But, until they tap a good revenue source they may as well have. JWP makes a good point about what CWE could turn into and how it may relate to Cyan. Possibilities.

@ Charura, Uru Maps is not really secret. But it tends to be spoilerish, so it isn’t pushed on new people.

@ Marten, I sometimes think of story as content, not often, but yes. I usually think of things people can see in-cavern as content. Many of our discussions are about getting story to where it can be seen and easily enjoyed.

I agree new story could help player retention. While you have a thing with Cyan story, others are into the Devokan Trust style stories. The challenge is getting in-cavern and out-of-cavern information presented to new players.

Dot’s point on the problem of people finding info in the forums is well made. To help new players we need a way to make the information more visible. Artic Wagon did a bang up job and the thread is still hard to find.

@ Regnad Kcin01, personal accumulation… you mean like eating chocolate and donuts make for personal accumulation? … I couldn’t pass it up… :D

I assume you mean an inventory of stuff and more stuff to put in the inventory. In that regard I think we are now on the path to building the tools to do more of that stuff making.

Currency… well you went and mentioned it… I’m not sure where the dividing line is in the community on currency but there certainly is one. I can’t find anything on currency systems and player retention. However, trading systems, a sort of currency, do have a positive effect often attributed to increased player interactions. So, that might carry over and help. But, it is controversial.

I’m not convinced Uru as Uru is doomed. I do think it has to change. But, changing it away from the nebulous core Myst-Uru to another game doesn’t work for most of us. I think we have several items that could be added and improve the game without making massive changes to the feel of Uru, but only time will tell if we can adapt features from other games to an Uru style.

@ darkgriffin, I’m not sure Cyan’s plug-in is dead. They are using and presumably advancing it for their use in current projects, MQO and others hinted at but unnamed.

I’ll simplify your post to the idea that RP was pulling you in each day, keeping up with friends and events.

Also, that story updates need a bit of randomness as to occurrence. However, the Events of Doom may be over doing it. A mix perhaps? The monthly events seem to draw people in. It would seem they could be a focus point to remind or inform people of fun things they might like to join. I think having only scheduled events was a problem. However, it is implemented your point is made.

My experience from SL RP is that props are a big help. Players need to make some effect on the environment to move beyond a chat room. We are experimenting with letting players change the world in OSGrid. Building and showing off stuff creates player interactions and helps player retention. How to do that in Uru is unclear. We seem to have a very hard line between builders and players.

I’m seeing some interesting collaboration between builders like Andy and players like Dot. (OMG… Dot’s a player… I’ll hear about that). Andy is not the only one adapting ages to story from other players. I’ve called that collaborative play. Dot and I have seen things in each other’s stories that we liked and added it to ours. Often without talking about it, just doing it. Other times it was planned. In some cases changing our builds to reflect parts of another’s story. While very easy in SL I think it is somewhat possible in Uru.

I’m over 1,000 words… :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:27 am 
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Nalates wrote:
I also think it would require lots of core changes in Uru.

What type of changes would you anticipate? I assume you mean changes to the gameplay. Personally i don't see a massive change. URU already has Physics based puzzles which currently are annoying as you have to "Kick" objects. Making it so you have more control should only make it so that its less "Hit and miss" when it comes to placing physical objects where you want them to go.

Nalates wrote:
Real time age editing… I can only see this in an offline version of the game. As I understand it, all the objects in an age are identified objects and contained the game files, which are downloaded before an age renders. Uru has no process for adding to an age after it has initially rendered, which is why any group building in real time is highly unlikely.

Yes, its only viable as an offline editor. But it is classed "Real Time" because you see exactly what it will look like in the game and you can test it out and get the same results you would ingame.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:32 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Team based play is a part of the motivation in Facebook games. I know when I drop a game I have a concern about the other players I’ve been supporting. So, that could probably be a significant factor in Uru player retention.


This is a good idea, and I think that taking a leaf from Firefly Studio's Stronghold Kingdoms is a good idea here. In that game, your villages are all connected to parish capitals that have buildings inside that everyone in the parish contributes to. It forces communication and relationships with others. Really clever gameplay mechanic.

So, in Uru - this is kind of a big idea so don't put me down as someone who's offering to do it - you could do something like this. A neighbourhood age, or possibly areas of the neighbourhood itself, that require contributions from the members of the neighbourhood to renovate or keep going. Suppose that there's a broken imager. You do a repeatable activity that involves you getting parts to fix D'ni machines, and those parts are automatically contributed to the neighbourhood's pool of that resource. Once there's enough, the imager gets fixed. Not all that different from "Run marker missions to recalibrate the Great Zero", when you get down to it, but it would require a lot of work.

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Real time age editing… I can only see this in an offline version of the game. As I understand it, all the objects in an age are identified objects and contained the game files, which are downloaded before an age renders. Uru has no process for adding to an age after it has initially rendered, which is why any group building in real time is highly unlikely.


Yes, pretty much. There's never been a working incarnation of the Plasma engine that can import assets on the fly.

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Better content could help player retention (nice pumps). A shopping mall ala SL Market place might work. Setting up a shop in Ae’gura might get one lynched.


Content is just "more game". We quite clearly need more content.

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Visuals are an odd item when one looks from the retention viewpoint. Great visuals will attract people. Like a photo album. But, they don’t do much for player retention long term. We don’t look through our photo-albums every day, week, or month. Minecraft is doing well with what I consider poor visuals.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... Aesthetics (Extra Credits is an excellent show on game design)

Definitely, the one thing that Uru does absolutely right is the aesthetic. That's the important thing, not graphics fidelity.

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Money, whether Cyan has totally moved on… I speculate they haven’t. But, until they tap a good revenue source they may as well have. JWP makes a good point about what CWE could turn into and how it may relate to Cyan. Possibilities.


The Myst movie has made major headway, and there are other projects. Cyan seem to be... buzzing... way more than they were this time last year.

Sorry. Had to make that joke.

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I agree new story could help player retention. While you have a thing with Cyan story, others are into the Devokan Trust style stories. The challenge is getting in-cavern and out-of-cavern information presented to new players.


Story is vital. Uru was designed as a narrative MMORPG. You have to have it, and the fact is, you're wandering around the Myst universe. That IP is strong enough that even a reasonably simple story would be enticing.

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I’m not convinced Uru as Uru is doomed. I do think it has to change. But, changing it away from the nebulous core Myst-Uru to another game doesn’t work for most of us. I think we have several items that could be added and improve the game without making massive changes to the feel of Uru, but only time will tell if we can adapt features from other games to an Uru style.


fiery abyss no it isn't, and it won't be doomed so long as people get their backsides in gear and start making content.

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@ darkgriffin, I’m not sure Cyan’s plug-in is dead. They are using and presumably advancing it for their use in current projects, MQO and others hinted at but unnamed.


Cyan's plugin is not dead by any stretch of the imagination. Trust me on that.

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My experience from SL RP is that props are a big help. [...] Building and showing off stuff creates player interactions and helps player retention. How to do that in Uru is unclear. We seem to have a very hard line between builders and players.


Yup. That can be solved, though. With the right infrastructure, somebody should be able to make a model and texture, then hand it over to a team who can put the model in the game.

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I’m seeing some interesting collaboration between builders like Andy and players like Dot. (OMG… Dot’s a player… I’ll hear about that). Andy is not the only one adapting ages to story from other players.


Collaboration. 100% vital.

So.

I'm launching a team. Teams are cool now. As the A Team shows, things are infinitely more badass in a team.

The team's name is OSCAR. It stands for Open Source Creation and Restoration. We need an open team for content, I've been meaning to do this for months, and this seems like a good time as any.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:32 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Real time age editing… I can only see this in an offline version of the game. As I understand it, all the objects in an age are identified objects and contained the game files, which are downloaded before an age renders. Uru has no process for adding to an age after it has initially rendered, which is why any group building in real time is highly unlikely.


I don't know why, but I always have to but in when I see a wholly inaccurate statement and interject with Um. No. Sorry.

Now, I should point out this isn't really "real time" I mean, in a way it is, and in other ways it's not...however, last year a talented writer once created something akin to real time age editing-

For techincal background you can check here:

Tahwah

And for the demonstration video you can see it in action on youtube:

Tahwah Demonstration Video

Unfortunately real life issues got in the way and he (The Modificator) was not able to continue development of the age. However he did release the source files so that others, if they so chose, could continue to develop the concept. The link to the sources for Tahwah can be found at the end of the thread.

Those magicians at the Guild of Writers, we come up with some insane things sometimes :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:07 am 
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Nye_Sigismund wrote:
Definitely, the one thing that Uru does absolutely right is the aesthetic. That's the important thing, not graphics fidelity.

I agree completely. There are still alot of really old games which suck you into their world, making you feel like you are there, even though they never had advanced graphics.

ChloeRhodes wrote:
however, last year a talented writer once created something akin to real time age editing

Being able to literally make your own age inside of URU would definitely be cool. If you could save them on the server then you could show off what you made to friends, which in turn would help the social aspect of the game.

Tahwah is definitely cool.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
I’m not convinced Uru as Uru is doomed. I do think it has to change. But, changing it away from the nebulous core Myst-Uru to another game doesn’t work for most of us.


If you mean by "doomed" that it is destined to die, then I'd tend to agree at least for now. If, however, by "doomed" you mean to remain perpetually insignificant, I would disagree. Without significant and revolutionary additions to the game, there is no incentive for me to return, and apparently no incentive for player retention in general. By insisting that it remain essentially a D'ni universe, It will never be anything other than a small, relatively static blip. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, but it would draw no curiosity form me.

I reject the fundamental assumption that seems to suggest that radical change must, by definition, immediately affect the entire construct. It doesn't have to be that way. The very nature of The Art, suggests that worlds which are radically different from the D'ni universe exist and can be linked to. As such they would be, at least initially, compartmentalized, although it is inevitable that some diffusion from those worlds into the currently existing construct would occur simply by way of people traveling between worlds.

Xenophobia is still a very strong prejudice running almost unnoticed throughout the human species. Now that change is possible, it seems strange to believe that the only good change is change that doesn't run too far or jump too high.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
I reject the fundamental assumption that seems to suggest that radical change must, by definition, immediately affect the entire construct. It doesn't have to be that way. The very nature of The Art, suggests that worlds which are radically different from the D'ni universe exist and can be linked to. As such they would be, at least initially, compartmentalized, although it is inevitable that some diffusion from those worlds into the currently existing construct would occur simply by way of people traveling between worlds.

I would argue that this is the D'ni universe, in that the Art essentially creates a potential story structure capable of taking us to worlds that are utterly unrelated to the (current) world of Uru, D'ni (itself), and so forth. Writing such worlds and integrating them into MOULa would make it more interesting for me, but I doubt if it would be enough to make MOULa "successful" (if number of logins is the metric for success). (I don't think Regnad and I disagree, I would just put things in a slightly different way.)


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:53 pm 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
The very nature of The Art, suggests that worlds which are radically different from the D'ni universe exist and can be linked to. As such they would be, at least initially, compartmentalized, although it is inevitable that some diffusion from those worlds into the currently existing construct would occur simply by way of people traveling between worlds.

In a small way (if I am not misunderstanding), this is happening with some of the Devokan story threads, areas and ages. For example, structures that initially appeared in the worlds of SL and Restoration (OSgrid) inspired their parallels in fan-made Uru ages such as Shell 415 in Ahra Pahts, Serene v. 2.0 and Skysong.

The story itself deliberately spans the three worlds, with journals and story objects in each. In the fan-made Uru ages, some journals are dynamic in that they can be updated over a network, should an individual choose to enable this. (This depends on the story-teller getting around to updating the journal source texts, of course... :oops: )

Experimentation in building mostly takes place on OSgrid, where we can easily build in world and share ideas, structures and textures -- so that making an "Age" or an area is a social activity as well as a creative one.

Puzzle-making experimentation has happened mostly in the Uru-based ages.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Stucuk wrote:
@Regnad Kcin01: I don't think that game breaking features like ingame currency are needed. The reason URU wasn't a success in my opinion is because alot of people proberly didn't think it was worth paying a subscription fee to get a new age each month.


Perhaps a bit of clarification would be helpful on my part. I mentioned an in-game currency coupled with an ability to accumulate "things" as a way of incentivizing new development. Your opinion that links subscriptions and content falls apart when one asks the question: Is paying a subscription worth it if we would get 5 new ages per month instead of only one? How about ten ages? Fifteen? But as soon as that dialog begins to evolve, then the whole question of "quality" launches. While your observation may be somewhat correct, the more accurate observation would be that Uru failed in general because its limited re-playable content was too time-intensively lavish, and too quickly consumed to be profitable. All the other thrashing around about this subject is just minutiae pointing at the same basic premise.

Introduction of "things to purchase" and a currency that would support the exchange of these "things", would provide a new development incentive that doesn't currently exist in the world. The only development incentive that exists right now is ego gratification. Ego gratification is a terrible incentive to provide a stable and sustainable development atmosphere. Any one that requires proof of this need only browse Hoikas' reactions over the past couple days. This is far from the first time this sort of thing has happened, and there are just too few qualified developers in the community able to deal with the arcane technology that makes up the world.

Frankly, my original response was mostly academic. I hold no hope that there will be any sort of significant development from a player's perspective as a result of the Open Source effort. That doesn't mean that we can't entertain our desires with dialog, as long as we don't attach to tightly to them or bestow them with tremendous importance.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:27 pm 
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The problem with an in-game currency is how do you get the money to buy things. With most MMO's you get gold for completing quests for NPC's or killing things but URU doesn't have either of them.

Allowing people to make there clothes, etc and somehow be able to share/trade them would be a good idea imo(Even if its just changing textures on existing clothes models rather than making completely new models).

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Introducing currency - such as D'ni Dollars - may sound a good idea, but would fundamentally change the nature of the game. That alone would create resistance from players.


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:00 am 
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How about a non-monetary system of rewards? Things like credits, or maybe service points (the more you gain, the more the DRC trusts you, and lets you adventure into more and more Ages, and more unstable areas).

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:14 am 
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Lyrositor wrote:
How about a non-monetary system of rewards? Things like credits, or maybe service points (the more you gain, the more the DRC trusts you, and lets you adventure into more and more Ages, and more unstable areas).

The problem still boils down to "How do you earn them?".

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 6:16 am 
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Stucuk wrote:
The problem still boils down to "How do you earn them?".

Would it be possible to set up a system where helping on a project associated with open-source Uru counts? For example, bug testing an age, contributing a model or a texture to a shared library of resources, writing or editing an article for one of the GoMe publications, helping with forum admin on one of the community websites, ...

While these tasks take place outside the cavern, they all help to develop the game and are very much part of how many of us play it.

One problem that I can see with this idea, though, is that the rewards/credits probably wouldn't happen automatically (i.e. be coded into the game itself).


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