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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:34 pm 
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AlanD, I very much agree. Many believe the same thing. I have a few friends who I got to play the Cyan games, and they also agree, and I am sure there are others.
Just get the game out and then do expansions later before other problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:50 pm 
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Nicoleleigh wrote:
Just get the game out and then do expansions later before other problems.

No - haste like that is a sure path to badly integrated expansions and an unsatisfactory core game, that will ultimately damage its reputation and appeal.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:10 am 
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Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 am
Posts: 633
Location: UK: Now with added Magic
This is an area fraught with difficulties, a few of which I have an inkling of, but many others are beyond me.

I can understand the ambition to make the best product that you can, to realise your vision, and to make it as good as you can see it in your mind's eye.

But then there is the venerable QA saying that "better is the enemy of good enough".

From what I read, Cyan were on track to deliver the game we had funded. We knew it wasn't as much as they had hoped, but they told us it was enough to do a good job within a limited scope. And that was fine , for me at any rate, it's what we hoped for, wanted, and put up our money for.

With this latest announcement, two thoughts stick in my mind.

One is, that since your funding is coming from a wide public base, a lot of whom are long-term fans, it should be obvious that keeping the backers informed is a vital part of the task. Not an optional extra to be fobbed off onto a member of the team that is already very busy. So I am alarmed that the job has ended up with Greydragon and RAWA, both of whom are critical resources to the whole project already, and who are not (probably) counting backer communication as one of their key skills. I am a PM, and I know that customer communication is key to that job, but that is not the same as keeping backers up to speed and Ryan is up to his neck in stuff already. And RAWA, with the best will in the world, is not a front man. What I mean to say is that backer comms should have been factored into the project from the get go, and budgeted for.

I would diffidently point out that if good backer comms were in place then coming to us, laying out the facts and asking if we could come up with more funding, for a specific, achievable and exciting goal (which it sound like this was) would have been a no-brainer.

The other is that a staged release, with promise of expansion packs later, is not a new thing, and should be possible even now. I would be quite surprised if the necessary hooks for expansion were not already part of the plan. I agree with Mac that the ability to include expansions needs to be part of the core design.

There is an unworthy thought, that Cyan have gambled away some of our money, that I'm trying to suppress.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:36 am
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I don't post much (at all) but have been a member since 2006. One comment only from me - RAWA IS now a front man. And he's doing a wonderful job. I, for one, am happy to see Cyan (via RAWA) pushing back. (And I'm talking about the recent comments on Kickstarter.)

I cannot offer an intelligent opinion as to what Cyan should do - mostly because I have no idea what they're up against. But I do trust them and am more then happy to support them.

(To RAWA, from my heart - I have somewhat of an idea of what you're going through - I didn't have brain cancer but did have another cancer. Anal cancer, how gross is that! Cancer sucks - treatment sucks royally - steroids suck (sorry for the language). Please, please be good to yourself and know that this is a time for you to put yourself first. DO NOT feel that you need to continue answering - someone else will do it if you can't - really! - take care of YOURSELF.)

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:09 pm
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Alan, I have to say that I'm very much impressed how you're putting things straight here and telling it as it is, you yourself an engaged and respected community member, saying this all to a community of Cyan fans/body guards/caretakers at all cost (no offense, I absolutely see the good will and intent etc.) and as such 'throwing yourself under the bus' haha (I have to laugh heartily, because that phrase comes from Tai'lahr, who once 'threw herself under the bus' with me with sth else lol) ... :P

We have given Cyan a 'kickstart', literally, and they've already received another 'kickstart', energetically, psychologically and in many ways, by many of us, who support them and would even put some more bucks into all of this ... Now it is up to them to make the best of everything ... As I've said above, they can consider themselves lucky that the 'waiting game' didn't last for too long, a few months only, not years, and now they're free to move on and decide freely and with no hurry how to proceed ...

An important point to consider is, and that's why all this 'putting things straight' etc. doesn't really count and apply here, Cyan folks are no business people, I believe, they are artists, creators of worlds and visionaries, which is a completely different world and wavelength ... They live differently, feel differently, organize everything and themselves differently etc. etc., as everyone, we are all creators in a way and unique, of course, but artists are sth else lol ... 8)

So, to put it very simple, I can imagine that they were so excited by what they were creating (of course lol, it's our next adventure after all), and everything just expanded and expanded and the ideas and inspirations were flowing in, which is completely normal in these times and constantly incoming extremely high energies etc., really lol ... Now, where to stop, this is not a sculpture or a building or 'just' cooking a meal or painting a picture etc., but you're getting the picture, right? ... as Atrus said at the end of Riven '... and now I'm at last understanding that in books and in ages and life the ending can never truly be written' ... :)

This all is of course my version, my perspective as I see it lol, but what I actually want to express here is that I do not at all believe that they've carelessly or deliberately 'gambled away money', in the contrary, I can imagine the enormous pressure, consciously or more unconsciously, as the creators of Myst and Riven to meet the high standards and demands they've set up for themselves lol, though they've proven themselves with Obduction that they can do it again, I'm glad, and because they are not really business people, they only are it of necessity, I suppose, there's a high pressure to meticulously and carefully spend this money, given in trust, in the most efficient manner for everything and all involved ... Yeah, and stuff (life lol) happens, the expansion is there and the costs and then the opportunity and you take it, why not, and then 'poof gone', but ok, now fresh to the next ... Looking back and beating oneself up for anything costs precious energy and time too, time and energy needed to move on confidently and courageously ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:05 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:46 pm
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I can see both sides of this - I agree with AlanD that in any normal project, you'd make clear provision for communication, rather than trying to fit it in around other important roles and tasks. But if I were the creative types in Cyan that Janaba so eloquently describes, and my kickstarter had raised less than I was really hoping for, I can imagine that I'd really resent paying someone to do comms, if this reduced the resources going into building the game. Who's to say that this wasn't the right call for Cyan to make, in the circumstances, even though some fans got cross? Ideally, they would't have had this hard choice to make, of course.

And I so agree with Buzzle1 that RAWA should resist getting dragged into the comms vacuum. He has so much more important stuff to be doing - ie getting well, his family - and, just maybe, when he has any time to spare, helping Cyan get themselves out of the pickle they got themselves into.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:26 pm 
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AlanD wrote:
There is an unworthy thought, that Cyan have gambled away some of our money, that I'm trying to suppress.
I understand how you can feel that way. It makes perfect sense. It could even be true, but if it is, I believe they'll find a way to make it up. It could be by taking profits from another game or just simply putting in the necessary extra hours to make things work. Whatever they decide, I have absolute faith in them. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe Cyan is built on magic/luck/faith and the goodwill they've developed with their fans and the industry.

When they released Myst, they'd optimistically hoped to sell 20 to 30k units and sold 200k within four months and 1.5 million by the end of 1995.

Riven took longer than projected, but they kept the fans busy and interested with puzzles, backstory and the D'ni language.

When Ubisoft pulled their support of Uru online, fans hosted shards "until Uru" could happen again.

When GameTap came to them with a deal for MOUL, there were only two employees (Rand & Tony) left and they were closing the doors of Cyan.

When the GameTap deal ended, they managed to stay open by creating smaller games and updating older games for new platforms.

Creative Kingdoms gave them the job of creating MaqiQuest online and that allowed them to bring back MOUL.

Now, together with the fans, they've kept MOULa going for almost six years, now.

And, together with the fans, they managed to fund a new game.

Given Cyan's history, I believe Obduction is touched by the same magic/luck/faith and goodwill.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:18 pm 
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Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 am
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Janaba, putting things straight and telling it like it is? I'd never make such an arrogant claim, all I'm doing is presenting my own opinion and saying where it comes from. This is at least as much about allaying my own fears and concerns, by forcing myself to present them coherently and thinking them through, as it is about putting forward suggestions that may be helpful. I already know I'm too far distant from Cyan to be accused of looking for a job there (although if anyone else has anything going.......)

In order to get the best end product you can achieve, you have to cut your coat according to your cloth. In other words (words that I've used often before) you set your goal right at the start, by writing a good description, a specification of the end product that you aim to produce, agreeing that specification by signoff of all interested parties.

That is not to say that the end point can never be changed. The spec can be revised, but to do so demands a complete replan from that point forward and can't be done lightly.

This is a long project and it is a racing certainty that things will change part-way through. There are well documented and proven tools to accomodate unforseen events and to manage projects with a high creative content - risk management, contingency management, scheduling, budgeting, project review and so on, the list is long.

I'm sure there is a project plan for Obduction, as they would not have got this far without one. That said, the fallback plan to cover this latest disappointment should be in place already.

I do think that the backer comms function should have been factored into the project from the start.

I can fully understand that it is not a full-time job, given the small size of the team, but it is the sort of thing that can be farmed out to a subcontracter. I reckon it could be done by a home worker with decent internet and good comms skills, and it would relieve the folks in the firing line from that worry.

I am glad that Cyan feels confident enough to come out with the embarassing bad news now. It's a shame we weren't told anything earlier, but perhaps there were commercial confidences to be kept.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Cyan has a track record. They historically have had a bigger imagination than billfold. There is nothing to indicate that has changed.

Like most things that is good and bad. It is simply how Cyan has been and likely always will be. Expecting anything else leads to disappointment. Back them or criticize them, doesn't make much difference to anyone but the backers or critics.

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:54 pm 
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Cyan must also have spent some time and resources keeping other products updated and working, such as realMyst and Riven for mobile devices. The latest updates for iOS 8 & 9 just came out this month, helping insure at least a trickle from than money stream.

Yes, I'm disappointed in the further delays for Obduction, but understand that it needs to be done correctly and be rock-solid, whatever subset they are able to produce with the available resources.

In the mean time, "The Room 3" has finally been released this week, and I can get my "puzzle solving fix" there for a few hours. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:18 pm 
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Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:09 pm
Posts: 1987
Location: Berlin, Germany
As this is a thread with a request for 'Obduction' updates, I thought I'd post a very exciting one here for all who haven't heard of it or seen it yet, and all who might still be wondering who'll be doing the awesome soundtrack for Obduction ... :P

Please, follow this link to the latest great Kickstarter #55 update 'Anniversary Two - Huge Obduction Music Announcement!' and enjoy ... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:31 pm 
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A new Obduction teaser video from Cyan has been posted, check it out. 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGE_zp-fOU

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Obduction Backer

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Before you click the link, note that it "May contain spoilers for hard core purists." It does have some moving images from the game, but it's a very short video, so not much, really.

It's a new year's greeting and it's very cool. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:09 pm
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Location: Berlin, Germany
Oh, yes, it is, Tai'lahr, very cool ... and thanks for posting this here, Zaphod ... :P

I just answered to this subject, posted by pat_trick on the Cyan Backer's forum, but here's yet another best wishes for an amazing HAPPY NEW YEAR 2016!!! to all at Cyan Worlds and this great community from around the world ... Let's all have the best one ever ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Obduction
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:13 pm 
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Obduction Backer

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:53 am
Posts: 76
Location: Fountain Valley, California
It's getting closer...

http://gametyrant.com/news/we-played-obduction-the-spiritual-successor-to-myst-and-it-is-brilliant

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