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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:32 am 
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Last edited by domahreh on Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:33 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:47 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:58 am 
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Sorry, perhaps Neighborhood would have been better than bevin. People get allocated a default one but can break the link and join one of their choosing anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:42 pm 
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What I like so much about domahreh's point of view is that it allows for all possibilities, and so it forecloses none of them. It may turn out that a single organization works best, or that the original mission turns out to be too broad and so smaller groups specialize, or that massive disagreements erupt over the translation of certain words and the organization splinters. Keeping guild-like organizations non-monopolistic allows for all of those possibilities, and so encourages a vibrant and open society. It does not presume that we can predict what will be the "best" form for these structures, and allows for an evolutionary approach. Kudos, domahreh, for giving the perspective of a "guild leader" who seems ready for such a challenge.


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 Post subject: AoG - our goals
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:01 pm 
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Last edited by earthwizard on Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:17 am 
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I know only a few things for sure about Guilds in MOUL in its current form

Cyan is interested in having Guilds be part of things, they told us.

Rand and RAWA have talked about it, RAWA told us.

I like to follow where Cyan leads in all of this.

So I will wait for "more to be revealed"

And the discussion is very interesting and I am sure very useful to Cyan for formulating their synthesis, and they seem very senstive and wise as how to weave consensus with their own vision. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:16 am 
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Here's my 2 units of D'ni M'ni (though quite an epistle for only 2 coins--sorry <.< ) on D'ni Guilds & Explorer Organizations in Uru:

1- Officiality & Exclusivity
2- Rankings
3- Specific Guilds
4- Other Guilds/Organizations


1- Officiality & Exclusivity:

I personally have been looking forward to the formation of a formal Guild system in Uru. But it definitely needs to be Cyan-approved (OOC), and at least partially DRC-endorsed (IC), or there's bound to be conflicts between the various Fan-Guilds that will pop up. Certain guidelines, limits, and areas of involvement would need to be set in place.

Exclusivity (wow that's a fun word to say) is obviously against what "Uru" (meaning "Grand Community") is all about. I don't think people should be able to switch Guild-membership at the snap of a finger, but it shouldn't be too hard to do so. User-Name Prefixes like the ResEngs have would definitely hurt more than help. And I don't think anyone should be turned away from joining any Guild. Membership in a Guild should be about an individual explorer wanting to focus on a particular area of "Cavern life" a bit more highly than other areas--and so the Guilds shouldn't become so prominent and integrated that explorers feel they absolutely have to join a Guild to enjoy Uru.


2- Rankings:

Any kind of rigid system of Rankings would make Uru too much like other MMOs where it's all about competition, and you have to play constantly to make it worth it. This would discourage a lot of types of people, and it would discourage Newbies, 'cause they'd be "too far behind". Uru is not meant to be about "leveling up" and "status". But I think a few various Guild "ranks", if you will, could work. We've heard of the D'ni ranks "Grand Master", "Guild Master", "Guild Captain", & "Guildsman". Let's say we take those, and maybe add to this something like "Initiate" (for a total of 5), and I think it could work this way:

Take the "Guild of Linguists"--You obviously wouldn't want the Grand Master to be someone who only played Uru one day a month, couldn't read the D'ni script, and couldn't even conjugate a verb properly. Similarly, the Guild Masters would be expected to be fairly versed in D'ni. And the subsequent ranks would reflect both knowledge of the D'ni Language, and participation in the Guild.

But by "participation", I don't mean in "countable hours". In any Guild, a person would be able to get beyond the so-called "lower ranks", even if they didn't play as often as others. It would reflect willingness to participate in the Guild, helpfulness in Guild activities, and genuineness/quality of participation (even if they only played Uru once a month). The so-called "higher" Guild ranks (Grand Master & Guild Masters) wouldn't be "reserved", but would obviously be the people who helped primarily "run" the Guild--if there's things to be done in a Guild, there have to be people who are around a bit more often to do them.

Yes, there is the possibility that this could lead to exclusivity & elitism, but if we understood from Day 1 that we're all equals--regardless of "rank"--we could prevent this. And if ResEngs (Cyan Employees) routinely monitored/participated in Guild activities, any negative behaviors could be nipped in the bud. (If anyone has horrible objections to this system I've described, don't go nuts & jump down my throat--this is all just hypothetical)

In any complex organization, there has to be some kind of "stratification"--just look at the Admin-Mod-Member format of most web-boards (including this one). I'm not suggesting that the Guilds should become some kind of "government", but in the end, any kind of "stratification" in Uru should be like the ideal format of Free Government: Not so much positions of power so much as positions of service.


3- Specific Guilds:

Obviously, some of the D'ni Guilds wouldn't work in Uru--Caterers, Legislators, etc. And some like the Writers might be feasible someday, but not right now. Additionally, some of the various "organizations" currently in Uru, or that could be formed in the future, are perfectly acceptable, but probably wouldn't quite fit as "Guilds". I think that the Guilds should largely be explorer-run/organized, but also that the DRC (IC; Cyan OOC) could provide something to each Guild to make each "official" in its own way. Here are the 5 Guilds that I think would work well in Uru: Greeters, Messengers, Archivists, Surveyors/Cartographers, & Linguists.

Greeters--Helping New Explorers into the Uru ("Grand Community"):
The only current "official" Guild. As Uru gets more & more people, and more & more content, Newbies could start feeling even more lost and overwhelmed than some of them do now. A constant presence of people specifically willing to answer questions, give orientations, and help people in their journeys, is definitely a good idea. And IC, I think the GoG could have a sort of "official" status by 1- Having new-user orientations in the GoG 'hood (rather than the "Beginners Bevin" 'hood), and 2- Having the Neighborhood Linking-Book in our Reltos initially link to the GoG 'hood by default.

Messengers--Dissemination of the Latest News on D'ni, the DRC, the Guilds, & the Ages:
This would largely fill the roll of some of the current organizations: "D'net", the "Cavern Communications Network", the "Cavern Today" Podcast, "The Echo" Newspaper from back during the Prologue, etc. The GoM wouldn't "remove" all these other organizations, but many of them (the "Cavern Today" & "The Echo" in particular, off-hand) could sort of be "sub-organizations" of the Guild itself. Officiality could be manifested by things like Town Hall Meetings being run by the GoMs, & the DRC announcing new information specifically through the GoMs.

Archivists--Gathering, Organization, Cataloging, Etc., of Information:
I can see how some would think that this could be served by the Guild of Messengers, but I think this is a separate area. The GoMs would be concerned with keeping people up-to-date on the latest information. The GoA would store all kinds of data: Dates for all the various Occurrences (openings of new Ages/areas, new items, Town Hall Meetings, etc.); Locations of new Items (linking books, linking stones, Relto pages, reward clothing, etc.); Logs of Chats w/the DRC, ResEngs, Sharper, Cate, Guild-leaders, etc. And officiality could be manifested by the DRC &/or ResEngs releasing some D'ni/Age-related info specifically through the GoA.

Surveyors/Cartographers--KI Functions, Marker-Missions, & the Great Zero:
The use of the KI's ability for navigation has great possibilities for exploring D'ni (and all the Ages--didn't the D'ni establish a "Zero" in every Age? I'd love to see that!). Think of using KI-coordinate clues to find some hidden goodie while exploring the vast City Proper! Some explorers have gone to great length to learn how to use KI-coordinates and Markers in complex and inventive ways. And the DRC/Cyan could help make the Guild official by providing the Surveyors/Cartographers (Or could the 2nd be a sub-organization of the 1st, perhaps?) the means to create in-game Maps of the various parts of D'ni & the Ages, through Guild-participation using Markers.

Linguists--Translation of & Education in the D'ni Language:
It's been suggested that the Linguists could be a sub-organization of the Guild of Archivists, but the D'ni Linguist community serves a very separate purpose. The current organization, the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship, is very self-contained from most other aspects of & organizations in Uru. When Uru was first released, the DLF web-boards were absolutely booming with dissection & speculation of all the D'ni texts found. A wonderful new set of up-to-date D'ni Language Lessons ("Rechoortahn D'ni"), as well as a very complete D'ni-English dictionary, are available. And the ultimate goal of the DLF is to have D'ni language lessons held In-Cavern. D'ni texts are part of the deep, wonderful History & Story that makes Uru as real as it is, and there are plenty of people who want to learn D'ni, and help translate new texts, or at least know what they say when they run across them. And the DRC/Cyan could officialize the GoL by releasing new D'ni vocab/grammar directly to the Guild. (Sorry for the long rant--I'm a D'ni Linguist <.< )

Finally, with a formal Guild System I think there should be 3 sets of web-boards for Uru:
www.urulive.com Out-of-Character discussion on all aspects of Uru as a game
www.drcsite.org In-Character discussion on the Restoration of D'ni & its Ages
www.dniguilds.org In-Character discussion on Guild matters, with a separate forum for each Guild


4- Other Guilds/Organizations:

Certain groups wouldn't fit well as a "Guild", but would still work as more open "Explorer Organizations". Current examples are "The Great Tree"--sort of the "Explorer's Union", the "Cavern Activities Team"--a social event organizer, & the "D'ni Zoological Society"--a group existing to study the animals of D'ni & its Ages. Here's some other ideas:

Maintainers--IC beta-testers, & fan-content moderators:
This could be kind of a dicey topic, but here's my thoughts:
First, the GoMn could be the In-Character beta-testers for DRC-released Ages. Game developers highly value testers who actually test, not just play & enjoy early-access--testers who systematically search for, attempt to reproduce, & report game-bugs. Yes, some people could see this as "elitism" or "favoritism", but non-GoMn explorers could apply to Cyan to be OOC beta-testers--testing Yeesha-released (or even Fan-released) Ages.
Second, the GoMn could help moderate fan-content. Cyan can either moderate it all themselves (which will severely limit how much fan-content we'll see), or they can "delegate" it to a group like the GoMn (which will allow much more fan-content to become available). Cyan could provide a basic list of "no-no" words, phrases, & images, and a set of guidelines on what is/isn't acceptable. Blatantly unacceptable content would be weeded out quickly, and only the borderline material would have to be brought to Cyan for approval.
Alternately, this role (even under the title "Mainainers", perhaps?) could be filled by the ResEngs.

Artists--Small-scale fan-content:
This seems a bit too open to be even a "Minor" Guild. An organization called something like the "Artisans of D'ni" could be a group of people w/design skills (and even some with just design ideas), organized to provide fan-content. It could be divided into sub-organizations (IC) for each of the various types of artistry--clothing, stained-glass, vases, paintings, statues, etc. This could even lead to vast customization of Neighborhoods.

Ages--Fan-created Ages:
In lieu of an official "Guild of Writers" (which will probably only happen once Cyan provides official Age-creation tools), the online group "Age Builders" (possibly in conjunction with H'URU?) could organize & manifest themselves In-Cavern as something like the "Age Builders Union"--a group of people who (IC) are studying Regestoy, & (OOC) possess graphic design skills (or at least well thought out Age ideas). The current Age Builders group & H'URU have done quite a lot, but it would be great to see a more formal & active presence in Uru.

Musicians--D'ni & fan-created music:
The "Cavern Choir" is an inventive and ambitious organization, but they could possibly become an adjunct of a larger musical group. Called something like the "Minstrels of D'ni", they could be a group of people who want to 1- Study D'ni music, 2- Write D'ni-inspired music, & 3- Perform both fan-music and official music in Uru (The "Cavern Choir" performs the "Kadish Gallery Theme", perhaps? Or "D'ni Jazz Club", anyone? ;)).

History--D'ni History-Buffs:
The deep back-story of D'ni is what makes Uru so awe-inspiring, and there are quite a few of us who want to know it all, or at least want to know more. A "D'ni History Association" could be organized to help other explorers learn the history of the D'ni civilization (and be an alternative to reading all 34 Kings Journals ;)). This could be a sub-organization of the Guild of Archivists, but possibly operate on its own.

Religion--Spiritual Students of Yahvo:
I've been thinking of starting a sort of "Spiritual Fellowship" in D'ni, for those of us with spiritual beliefs, to unite IC to study & interpret D'ni scripture like "Words" & "Regeltahvokh Oorpah", & discuss their implications for the future of D'ni. I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to know more about the D'ni religion (the official "Church of Yahvo") & the various other D'ni spiritual sects, as well as those who'd like to be able to meet fellow spiritual explorers.


This epistle is waaaaay longer than I initially thought it'd be, but I'm glad I got a chance to discuss all this :) Whether we're for or against official Guilds, we need Cyan &/or the DRC to understand that we're chomping at the bit to know how things are going to be. If they're not going to hand it to us on a platter, let's formally present our ideas & wants to light a fire under them.

What do you all think? What are your ideas?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:51 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:41 pm 
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Create and organize a guild, society, gaggle, or whathaveyou but keep this in mind:

Competition is not a bad thing. Embrace it! And should a 'rival' group appear to be stepping on your toes/turf, open up a dialog w/them in good faith. Perhaps the two can merge or come to a compromise.
Everyone wants to be reasonable, you just have to give 'em a reason.


Hey, while I'm here, how about a nice set of fixed rules for 'Guild' formation:

1. There are no rules.
2. See rule number one.

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