It is currently Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:28 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Oh, I absolutely agree with the principle, I just wonder if- especially at first- that a specific sub-division of people creating music will be viable. Even Cyan, right now, keeps the amount of music in Ages pretty low. And like I say, I am worried about too much sub-division.

And that is certainly pushing much further into the grey area of people that might want to be in an organisation outside the GoW.

There is one other slight worry I have about such divisions- some people are talking of a structure where An Age first goes through process A under one group, then B under another group, and all the way through until it is finished by group X, or whatever.

I am not sure if a production line philosophy would work well. What would seem more likely to me is small (or even large, if practical) teams of people containing a broad spectrum of skills working on a project as whole from concept to completion, asking for help when needed.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 3120
Location: Aachen, Germany
I think that you don't understand my idea yet. :)

We both agree that the GoW needs music and sound effects in the near or far future, don't we? The GoW needs to attract musicians and sound technicians somehow. A musician sub guild is a good way - IMHO - to show people that we need their capabilities. They can start discussion music stuff and learn how to integrate music and sound effects into an age although we don't need them in the design phase of an age. They might even start to create a library of sound effects and music.

As soon as an age is ready for sound and music the members of the guild can add their magic sprinkle powder without delay. I like to be prepared. :)

_________________
Image
[KI again #01792364]| Uru images | KI guide


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Well, fair enough then, and if the Guild can attract such people that's great.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:17 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 57
The Noble Robot wrote:
Uh, this sounds really bureaucratic to me. What if I want to design an age top to bottom?


Point taken. The idea of the system I proposed is geared less towards people who can invision, design, and code an age entirely by themselves, but more towards people who want to contribute in one specific area since they have no expertise in another.

I think that, by all means, if a guildsman can create an entire age by themselves, they should make it and propose it to Cyan. But, just from experience, if several different people collaborate with specialties in various areas, the final product has a better overall appearance (not that an age created by somebody alone wouldn't be great).

But, once again, point taken. This doesn't have to be a rigid 12-step procedure through 7 different departments, etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Well I am sure it is possible to accomodate many different approaches.

This may bring us back to the question of what the Guild is for again. Is it about providing the means by which Ages are built, or is it about providing an environment in which people can build Ages, if you get what I mean.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:12 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:34 am
Posts: 769
Ushgarak wrote:
TNR- whilst you are indeed correct that creative people will be ten a penny compared to skilled 3d modellers, it absolutely does not follow that therefore only modellers should be in the Guild. Actually coming up with a decent concept for an Age and the contents within is not at all easy. Yes, a potential GoW will recerive a lot of attention from people with ideas but the sad truth is that a lot of those ideas will not be viable, or at least not of sufficient quallity. Finding people that are actually good at age concept, age fiction, or whatever, will be harder and to imagine that you can find that amongst people who can also 3d model is foolish. But such people are out there and they will want to help create Ages- why the fiery abyss should they not be in the GoW?


I think you're being way to new-agey about this. I mean, "age fiction?" Before you start on me, know that I'm not disparaging the idea that ages have history or whole stories around them (it's a big part of what makes Uru ages to interesting), but seriously, writing "age fiction" is not going to help create a level for a videogame. It enriches it, of course, but has nothing to do with creating it. Classifying people as members or experts in *that* area is useless because each age and project is going to have different requirements, and I seriously doubt that there are a lot of modelers who *don't* also have this ability to some degree.

There are certainly people who could assist in puzzle design, etc., and yes, that is not an easy skill, but they should not be called Writers. If an Age Writer wants help in these areas, they can get it from whoever offers it, but that's where it should end. To be in the Guild, you must be able to actually produce something. This is me speaking OOC here, and trying to shine a light on the harsh realities of designing video game assets.

But think, too, of this from an IC perspective. A person tells a writer that they have a great idea for an age. They tell the writer, and then the writer writes it. In this example, is the person who came up with the idea a writer? No, they're not. They're extremely important to the devising of that age, and it wouldn't be the same without them (and they deserve some notability in the community for their efforts), but they are not Writers, and do not belong, officially, in the Guild.

Seriously, are we going to have a "creative thought" sub-guild of people who sit around telling others "wouldn't it be cool if...?" It will be packed with 100s of people who meet the requirements of "creative person," and almost none of them will get to be involved in creating an age, since there are so few skilled modelers to utilize them.

Even if each modeler turns to 3 other people to "conceptualize" for them on each age, you'd still have 10s, perhaps 100s of people who have official guild membership but have nothing to do.

We have to have a hard answer to this. Something that is realistic and not fantastical. And along Tiran's original concept, here is what I propose:

(possible IC name: actual OOC function)

Writers: Modelers/Designers/Etc. (those who do the brunt of the actual work)
Editors: Musicians/Texture artists/etc. (those who produce actual assets for the Writers)
Guild Ancillaries: Anyone who has helped out a writer in any way on a completed age.

Guild membership is restricted to Writers and Editors, who produce the actual ages. Guild Ancillaries are everyone else, the "envisioners" etc., but cannot be called a GoW Ancillary unless they have provided a concept or an idea that is incorporated in an age. It's up to the Writer and the Ancillary to agree upon how to share credit in both an OOC and an IC sense.

This allows everyone to participate, and doesn't prevent creative people from being involved, but doesn't hand out memberships like campaign buttons, and reserves the "honor" of Guild membership to those with only skills that are central and totally necessary (at it's basic level) to creating an age.

Once the Guild of Historians and Guild of Archivists starts up, creative writers will be the ones who take the lead, but these first 5 guilds cannot be all things to all people.

Quote:
I'm not sure about a Musician sub-guild though- might be a bit too niche.


This is hilarious, because of all the "sub-guild" concepts, this perhaps the only one that is very much required. Musicians and audio recordists *do* produce something tangible for an age, and are infinitely more vital than age fiction writers.

Now, before anyone starts accusing me of discarding the skills or efforts of these ancillary creative groups, remember that I'm speaking only in relative terms, not employing a black-or-white judgment. I think the biggest mistake for the GoW is to not ask for help from other creative people in the community, because as I said before, none of us are experts in everything.

My solution excludes no one, and allows everyone to be a part of the Guild, if they show some participation in creating an age.

_________________
KI#01165421
Hey! Visit The Jalak Registry, the source for all things Jalak. Yes, it's still open!


Last edited by The Noble Robot on Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:34 pm
Posts: 40
I was always under the impression that the actual guild was put in place simply to allow members and unofficial Age writers the chance they wanted to implement their ideas into Uru itself, and that the process was simply a matter of convenience.
Then again, who can know what goes on in the minds at Cyan HQ?

I've always been a fan of making my own Ages from top to bottom, but then again I do occasionally have trouble getting the coding working properly. The place I see such structure as benefiting the most is in large, multi-faceted group project, where people could contribute what they do the best and the result would be a highly polished group of Ages (or something of the sort).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
TNR, 'New Agey' is just such a weird and inappropriate criticism as to have absolutely no power or relevance whatsoever.

And people that have been working in the age building community have asked for such people, so there you go.

Your opinion is that people involved in puzzle design etc. should not be Writers. Well, that's your opinion but I fundamentally disagree, and the 'harsh reality' is that I'm not the only one. The vibe so far has very much been that people involved in any apsect of design creation- from concept to creation- are welcome within the Guild to contribute towards that process. And that will make for a far better and far more efficient Guild as well. Your idea of it such technical skill being mandatory is an extremely bad place to start.

Your IC concern is irrelevant. No matter what form the Guild takes the IC is not going to map onto the OOC in that respect. Writiers create Ages solo in Myst history, whereas in real life Ages are created by group collaborations (and more likely than not will continue to be done so in future). There will always be a mis-step and this will have to be role-played around.

As for the numbers of people wanting to do creative stuff- well, I already addressed that in my last post and your comments since then change nothing about what I said.

Incidentally, starting off your Guild ideas by trying immediately to restrict entry means you are approaching the Guild issue entirely the wrong way. I also don't believe it is anything like what Tiran has described above, denying that entire class of people membership to the Guild.

I think my concerns at sub-guilding specifically down to the level of Musicians, and I really don't care whether you find that hilarious or not (certainly as you have mis-understood my objection, which was not on the grounds that musicians are not needed). I personally find your claim that you are excluding no-one pretty darn funny, though, as that is exactly what you are doing, as there is no way you can spin the statement "Guild membership is restricted to Writers and Editors". Your idea of a class system of 'proper' members and those who are not is equally disturbing. There should be no such division even if the principle behind your idea of who is making the relevant effort was correct, which I do not think for one second it is. In such team efforts the team should get the credit.

The fact of the matter is this- there are many facets to creating an Age, and whilst programming is at the core, these facets still very much exist, are relevant and are important. It should be the business of the GoW to include all of these elements, and hence it should be its business to include people that can contribute and want to contribute towards these elements. Your idea that modellers will normally be able to cover this side is also laughable. The best Ages will be created by collobarative effort of many talents.

And if you feel that some of my criticisms seem to be of thoings contrary to what you said- that's because your post itself was contrary, with contradictions within it.

Little could be worse than to start this process from the position you are taking. This is an attitude that must be fought strongly. It would simply be a rejection of a part of the community that could make very definite contributions to OOC age creation and so IC could be Writers.

To quote Tiran's opening post:

"The GoW is NOT for coders only. You don't need to be a Python or C++/C# developer. In order to produce high quality ages we need all sorts of people from 3d object creators over designers to story writers and puzzle creators. We need musicians to create sound effects and music and artists to get the lights and colors right. Age creation is team work! "

That is a friendly and progressive view. Yours is the opposite. It's a vision of a Guild that I want to see become a reality and I am certainly going to defend that vision.


Last edited by Ushgarak on Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:11 am, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 3120
Location: Aachen, Germany
Ushgarak wrote:
The fact of the matter is this- there are many facets to creating an Age, and whilst modelling is at the core, these facets still very much exist, are relevant and are important. It should be the business of the GoW to include all of these elements, and hence it should be its business to include people that can contribute and want to contribute towards these elements. Your idea that modellers will definitely always be able to cover this side is also laughable. The best Ages will be created by collobarative effort of many talents.


I agree with Ushgarak. Thou Shall Work In Teams! Amen!

_________________
Image
[KI again #01792364]| Uru images | KI guide


Last edited by Tiran on Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Well I'm certainly behind your ideas.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:50 am
Posts: 123
I agree with Ushgarak and Tiran on this issue. After all, it makes sense when you look at real-world models. Take a car company, for example. Sure, they need engineers and technicians to determine how to put the cars together (and to some extent the machines that will do the putting together), what materials they are made out of, etc. But a car company would go nowhere without the concept designers. Are the concept designers required to have the skills needed to determine exactly how the cars they design will be built? No, but they are still employed by the company. Why? Because they are necessary, and having them be a part of the company makes them able to work more effectively with the engineers and technicians. It would be silly for the car company to say, "Yeah, we like your idea, but we aren't going to actually employ you because you can't tell us exactly how it will be built," and then pat them on the head, give them a token credit for the design, and ask them to come back later if they come up with anything else. I, for one, would have absolutely no urge to have any dealings with such a company (not that I design cars or anything, but it applies to any sort of business).
The same applies for the GoW. If all someone gets for their efforts in coming up with the concept, story, or whatever is a token credit and a pat on the head, I seriously doubt that they will make the effort again, and will take their work to independent Age builders, if they bother to do any more at all.

_________________
KI # 03593691 (Samuel Churchill)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:31 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 57
Seconded, teamwork is definitely the way to go. And inclusiveness is the way to get there.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:28 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Texas
Will Cyan even accept ages from us? Or will there be a legal and possible financial problem to this. They would probably require us to sign over our rights to any ages we developed. We definitely need some talks with a representative of theirs. I was thinking maybe if we just developed ideas to start they might accept those easier, general descriptions, puzzle ideas, population ideas . Then their programmers could develop the actual ages. Although if you have the time and talent to design it all, I am envious. I can't believe that eventually they might need outside input.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:33 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
I believe very much the point of the exercise is that, ultimately, players can create their own Agea, yes.

That could be a very long way off though.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:45 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Washington State, USA
Greetings!

There seems to be some discussion here classifying us as either "creative" or "technical", with some of us seem to be a bit of both to varying degrees. I am an eclectic mix of both. And I play URU Live with the rest of us, having played through all the other Myst series. Of all the Guilds offered thus far, the Guild of Writers (GoW) is my best fit.

I have experiences and skills with writing, computer graphic, music/sound/MIDI, computer programming and scripting with recent a focus on web design and development, gaming (mostly strategy and interactive fiction), and game design (mostly roleplaying game modules, but am also working on interactive fiction). Technically for Age design, I know Python already and I expect to ramp up quickly with Blender. I hope soon to be crafting Ages too, from conception to completion. (I understand this is hard work -- but it's the type of work i love doing.)

My initial offer to the Guild of Writers is as a creative writer, designing and drafting descriptive profiles for new Ages. I can also help compose whatever text content is required for an Age project. Whatever my title or rank might be in the GoW (this is really unimportant to me right now), I offer my skills to anyone in the GoW, working with them as part of their project team(s). Once I've mastered Blender, then I hope to offer even more to the GoW.

Now -- I've been following the ongoing discussion on how we "should" organize ourselves with great interest. Offhand, I have no preference, provided in the end the GoW facilitates the coordination of our skills into productive teams that produce Ages, at least some of which Cyan accepts for the future growth of URU Live.

I've also read in this forum various explorers, some new to Age creation and some experienced, step forward to support, be affiliated with, or join the GoW. Is anyone taking note of who these people are and what they do and can do?

Whether or not you are, I suggest that even in our early stages the GoW adopt an application for membership (the Guild of Greeters does this) mainly to assertain who is really serious about being a member (for admission and to get a headcount of interest -- i doubt anyone is taking inventory on the t-shirts! :wink: ), but also to learn everyone's various skill sets, interests, and any Ages they have done or are doing -- for eventual placement in whatever structure we adopt and coordination into various future Age projects. The information from these applications could be put into a database for GoW reference.

I also do Human Resources (among other hats) for my employer. I am willing to help with a GoW application and database IF the rest of you think this is worthwhile, but don't already have someone with resources to do it, or doing it.

Please let me know.

Peace!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 179 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: