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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:02 pm 
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I still say my earlier post applies, here. I don't know if you saw it -- it got passed over without comment.

If we were talking about, say, the Guild of Messenger, would we be agrguing like this? "You are a Moderator, you don't actually pass messages to the community. You have to be a Cadet Messenger. Only people who actually communicate new information can be true Messengers." :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:19 pm 
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An idea -

D'ni word for writer is sehltahn
Perhaps we call the designers sehltahn sayehn (meaning a writer who designs)
And we call the modelers sehltahn ehndaiehn (meaning a writer who builds).

The words look a lot cleaner in D'ni text, but I can't figure out how to get D'ni text in the forums.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:51 pm 
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Here's another idea. Why not call everyone Members of the Guild of Writers? Or Writer, for short. (A Relayer is still a Member of the Guild of Messengers, or Messenger for short.)

If they need a further title, they can tack on Musician or Designer or 3D modeller, or whatever.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:08 pm 
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Montgomery wrote:
Here's another idea. Why not call everyone Members of the Guild of Writers? Or Writer, for short. (A Relayer is still a Member of the Guild of Messengers, or Messenger for short.)


... and so the circle ends at my original proposal. :)

I'd like to declare anybody a writer who significantly helps creating an age. I'd even say that the coffee and pizza boy is a writer because he helps me to concentrate on my job *if* he is has spent more than 20 or 30 hours for the job. *scnr*

Ladies and Gentlemen! Can we *place* reduce the red tape and the bike shed discussion?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Montgomery wrote:
If we were talking about, say, the Guild of Messenger, would we be agrguing like this? "You are a Moderator, you don't actually pass messages to the community. You have to be a Cadet Messenger. Only people who actually communicate new information can be true Messengers." :roll:


I get where you're going, but the GoW is fundamentally different from any other Guild in Uru; the analogy is not appropriate. If someone wanted to be in the Guild of Cartographers, but didn't want to draw maps or produce anything, electing to simply "conceptualize" great ideas for maps, they'd be booted right out, right? On the other hand, people who don't literally produce anything can still be valuable to the GoW, but they're not Writers. It's totally different.

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Here's another idea. Why not call everyone Members of the Guild of Writers? Or Writer, for short.


To use another real world example, not everyone is the DGA (Director's Guild or America) is a film director, in fact, the DGA represents"Film and Television Directors, Unit Production Managers, First Assistant Directors, Second Assistant Directors, Technical Coordinators and Tape Associate Directors, Stage Managers and Production Associates"

Only "Film and Television Directors" are actually "directors" by the definition used in the proper name of the Guild, but Production Associates (who handle legal things and are essentially entertainment lawyers) and 1st ADs (who are not actually creative directors at all but the managers who create the shooting schedule) can of course become members of the DGA, because thier professions are ancillary, and vital, to the core profession of the Guild (Film Directing), but these other Guild members can't call themselves directors... they'd get kicked out of the Guild if they tried! (Not that I want the GoW to be as ruthless as the DGA is known to be :wink:)

This isn't rocket science, people. There is no precedent whatsoever, in the real world or in the fictional world of Uru, which supports calling everyone a "Writer." It's confusing, makes no sense, and serves only to make everyone feel important, which is not even necessary.

Because, if we can all agree from the outset as we hae here in this thread (as well as enumerate on the future GoW website) that everyone and all skills are valuable to the Guild, then we'll be fine. You don't think that Technical Coordinators, who are important to the creation of a film, get depressed because they can't call themselves a director, do you??

Really, do you? :wink: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:22 pm 
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I've come to the conclusion that the flaw is in the guild name. People are trying to square a circle, and it isn't possible.

What would be a better all-encompasing guild name than Writer?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:42 am 
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Here's an idea, let's look at this hypothetically.

Let's assume, for a second please, that with 100% certainty that only those who physically put something in the ages are called writers, as has been put forth. What happens? The people under this title who are called writers are happy, and those who contributed hard work to the age, but are not called writers get seriously upset, and complain, and madness ensues.

Now let's assume that, for a second, everybody in the guild who contributes to the age gets the title of writer. Who's upset? Surely those who put the stuff in the ages recognize that the designers put in just as much effort, so surely they would not be angry that everybody is on an equal.

For me, it's a pretty simple decision to make - if everybody who helps gets the title, it keeps everyone happy, and fights to a minimum.

Also, I would like to point out that, even though there is not a lot to work with at this point, honestly who gets the title of writer really should not be a point that takes up a lot of discussion. Seriously, this guild has no formal structure, rules, or anything, and we're arguing over a petty point.

Just saying.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:56 am 
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Well, here's my honest opinion on it: Writing involves the act of creating an Age, and there are many aspects to Age creation. Since we are not D'ni and cannot create worlds from ink, we must adopt a very different process of creation, involving myriad talents and, as a result, myriad people. Because everyone involved works toward the creation of an Age, everyone involved reflects an aspect of Age creation or Writing. And so, in effect, everyone is a Writer to some extent, in that he or she creates something new.

What's all this arguing about, anyway? The purpose of the guild isn't to decide what title everyone gets, it's to create Ages for Uru. Really, what does it matter if someone who didn't physically help put stuff in an Age is called a Writer? We're all helping out, and we're all contributing to the Guild (or at least I do hope we are :wink: ), so when all is said and done, we're all equals :) .

I do hope not too much weight is put on the title. Coming from a long-standing Age creation community, I have to say we work best when such questions as official titles aren't weighing heavily upon us. We treat each other as equals in the creation process, and as a result, things get done much more smoothly.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:19 am 
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I can't believe this is still going at 11 pages :?

Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth (probably not a lot :lol: ). I'm not going to read through this whole thread so I'm sorry if this has already been suggested somewhere in there before.

1] Anyone can join the forum, get involved, and aspire to become a writer.

2] In order to become a "Writer" you must contribute something tangible to an age project. Music, idea's, text, anything.

3] Anyone in the guild that makes a major contribution (creates age building tools, Models a good quality age, creates a library of usable music) can be nominated and voted by the community as a whole to a position of "Master Writer". The Master writers will be the organisers of meetings, events, projects and administrators of forums etc..

4] Once a year a vote is held by the whole community to choose a "Guild Master" from among the ranks of the Master writers. The main task of the Guild Master is to act as the representative of the Guild of writers, and as the final decider on any Guild maters that have end in a tied vote or argument. There could also possibly be a "Junior Guild Master", who's only function would be to fill in for the "Senior Guild Master" if he/she was unavailable.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:57 am 
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The Noble Robot wrote:

Ushgarak wrote:
frankly I think trying to find suitable other titles like "Outliners" or some such thing would just descend into ridiculous farce.

Ushgarak wrote:
If people then have sub-titles that define what kind of Writer they are, then fine.


Hm, those statements don't seem to match. Using "Writers" and "Editors" (another term which could work for this, and sounds just as important as Writer) is a farce, but using "Writer:Modeler" and "Writer:Conceptualist" is fine!?!? :lol: :roll: :lol:

So under that system, what would you call me, a modeler *and* a designer *and* a musician *and* a graphic artist? I'm afraid my business card is not big enough.

Clearly, you are only interested in defending the title "Writer" for everyone, and not the practical application of the Guild structure or identity. That's fine to have only that one concern, it is, because it's important that that concern is raised, but you have to balance your concerns (which I do share) with other equally important concerns.

So other than the semantic use of the word "Writer," what's really the difference between your argument and mine (which makes my proposal only a hair better than no Guild at all :lol: kidding! :wink:)? Can you actually propose some sub-titles that would be "fine"?


First, yes, I do think your idea is farcical and the idea of subtitles is not. Although, as I have previously noted, I do have concerns about breaking down into too many subtitles, and although people could indeed straddle the distinctions as you note, that does not change that one bit; it's far more reasonable to do that than to make such judgments about who can and cannot be Writers.

Secondly- no, that's not my 'only' concern, what an odd thing to say. Actually I think this is very vital for the sttarting point of the Guild. I feel calling everyone a Writer is much more practical than the division that will ensue from trying to find them another name, which very few people want to happen, and the horrible acrimonious debate that would then ensure trying to find another title.

Next- it is in fact your analogies that are wrong. Designers etc. do literally produce something for an Age. Just because that production is not tangible, it does not mean it is not there. Secondly, using the example of a real world organisation is completely inappropriate, The OOC purpose of a GoW does not even vaguely map onto the purpose of such an organisation and resorting to comparison is confusing and unhelpful. Once more in the analogy of filmamking, the GoW does not map onto any single job. It is an umbrella around ALL the jobs- and all of those jobs correspond to IC Writing.

It makes no sense to not call such people Writers. It makes no sense to for people to be in a Guild of Writers, helping to create Ages just as much as anyone else, and yet not be called Writers.

It would not be in the least bit confusing to call them Writers unless you are being deliberately obtuse about it. Although people casually thinking about it may assume that 'Writer' only possibly maps onto modelling, that is not an idea that stands up to close examination. 'Writer' means you are a person who contributes towards the creation of Ages. It's that simple. You are right, it's not rocket science, and that's why clearly more people see it this way- the simplest way, the most inclusive way, the best way.

And in the end, TNR- people, who are willing to contribute want the title. Does it really make any darn difference to you whether they get it or not? You keep saying everyone is just as important. Good. Shouldn;t matter to you what they are called, should it? But it DOES matter to them because the term 'Writer' has a certain association to it This is simply the truth. It is unfair to then discriminate between who gets to use it and who does not- unfair and silly.

It's all been said. Yes, it is aggravating that the point is still being argued. But then actually, not many people are arguing against the idea. Most people are clearly happy for everyone to get the title.

I think I am fairly much done; every post I make is just re-stating the same clear point in different ways. Everyone has the message, the point has been made, and I do suspect the debate is already over. No-one else is going to change their mind.

If youy help create an Age in any way you are a Writer. That's my vote, and my last comment on this discussion.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:24 am 
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My solution would be to call the guild the Guild of Agers. Writers (builders / developers) and all of the other component parts would be sub-guilds. Any takers?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:38 pm 
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I do understand your principle, but I think going back to Cyan and saying "Actually we don't want it to be called a Guild of Writers" is opening up a set of hassles that I do not think would be worth it. Not to mention that it would simply be unfortunate and even undesirable to break away from such a classic piece of D'ni mythology as the GoW.

Besides the principle that a Writer is someone who helps build an Age- in any capacity- still holds, I feel.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:11 pm 
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IC, making an Age complete with structures, machinery and the like would involve not only Writers, Book-makers and Ink-makers, but also Surveyors, Mechanists, Analysts, Stone-Masons, Engineers, and sometimes Miners and Chemists. OOC, there isn't much for those guys to do if everything related to developing Ages is done by Writers.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:36 pm 
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Not to mention that it would simply be unfortunate and even undesirable to break away from such a classic piece of D'ni mythology as the GoW.
You wouldn't be. The GoW would still exist, but as a sub-guild for the specialism of the age-building itself.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:27 pm 
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A log of today's meeting will be posted shortly by Robert The Rebuilder.

It answers a lot of questions and should help set the record straight about the Guild of Writers.


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