It is currently Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:14 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:02 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 2:00 am
Posts: 1669
Location: Lakewood, WA
greydragon wrote:
Remember, the guild system will change in the future. Feel free to talk to each other about what you would like to see in a guild system. Cyan has a plan for what it wants the system to be and we hope to show you that plan in the future.

greydragon wrote:
Eleri wrote:


Examining these two statements, it seems Cyan is saying:

"Go ahead and plan, and make a Guild of *whatever*, but we'll be making our own system in the future, when we're ready."


Yep

Quote:
What assurances do any of us have that any effort put towards building a guild, of any structure, will mean anything when Cyan launches 'official' Guilds?


None

Quote:
Why are we being asked to do work, when something different will be used by the Cyan in the future?


Who's asking you? Guilds will be months / years off.

Quote:
Shouldn't we be *WAITING* to organize, until Cyan shows us what their system is? Or are people putting cart before horse in their enthusiasm for the word GUILD?


You tell me. Even if Cyan came out today and said stop organizing guilds people would still do it.

Cyan is just giving you a heads up that Cyan version of the guild system might be different then the one produced by the fans.

So proceed at your own risk.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:04 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:01 pm
Posts: 1890
(As you probably know, I've been arguing strongly for open and inclusive Guild structures.)

I find it helpful to think about particular problems -- goals, desires -- in terms of minimal control. Somebody pops up and says "Of course, only X will be allowed to Y." That statement begs to be delved into. What happens if *everybody* is allowed to Y? Does anything actually bad result from that? Or are people perfectly capable of managing their own X control? Do we need an official Y in the first place?

Another useful tool of analysis: What happens if the members of X have a screaming argument and half of them walk out? (You *know* this can happen. The more power a group has reserved for itself, the more its members must be jealous of it. That's what turns arguments into political schisms.)

So now you have X1 and X2, and they're both trying to be in charge of Y. Can you come up with a way for this to work amicably? Maybe Y can have multiple sources. Maybe there are lots of Ys.

The nice thing is, once you've solved this, you can cheerfully open the door for people to form X3, X4, and X99 on their own. That cuts down on the screaming arguments -- or at least on the screaming -- because the escape valve exists from the beginning. If I don't want to work with you, I just work with someone else.

_________________
Andrew Plotkin -- Seltani founding member


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:59 am
Posts: 23
Location: Ar
I have been to a guild and listened to them talk about explorers and how they will have to answer to them. They will be able to kick them out of the game if they bother anyone.
I was just at a forum about guild of messengers and reading about who was worthy enough to be considered a news meduim.
I really like this game, but it seems like it is getting to the point of the great ones and the lesser ones.
I am looking for a guild to belong to. One that wants everyone to feel welcome, have fun, and to help out. Like a team, working together.

_________________
Ziidee

KI # 03212280


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:19 pm
Posts: 15
Yep, nothing like throwing gas on a burning fire. This sure is a touchy subject, isn't it.
I can accept everyone's criticism, pro and con. However . . .when someone says this:

[quote]"It sounds to me like you've been excluded from a lot in your life and for that I'm sorry. "[quote]

. . .that is so uncalled for. You know nothing about me, and it is so far from the truth that it borders on ridiculous. Please no personal attacks. thx


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:12 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 2:00 am
Posts: 1669
Location: Lakewood, WA
Quote:
Yep, nothing like throwing gas on a burning fire.

Ya but, we do learn from it. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:28 pm
Posts: 292
ziidee wrote:
I have been to a guild and listened to them talk about explorers and how they will have to answer to them. They will be able to kick them out of the game if they bother anyone.
I was just at a forum about guild of messengers and reading about who was worthy enough to be considered a news meduim.
I really like this game, but it seems like it is getting to the point of the great ones and the lesser ones.
I am looking for a guild to belong to. One that wants everyone to feel welcome, have fun, and to help out. Like a team, working together.


Zidee- you have to understand that not everyone in the cavern has the answers for you. We are only beginning the process of forming the guilds and there is a lot of misguided information going around- but if you dig a little harder you are sure to find many that are willing to help you find your way. The most vocal are not always the most knowledgeable. Take your time, visit all the forums, talk to your fellow explorers and you are going to be surprised at how many will welcome you!

One of the most hearting things I overheard recently was an exclamation in the Guild of Cartographers pub- Wow I didn't realize so many people were interested in us! Just goes to show we are all finding our way and we are always happy to find others with similar interests.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:07 am 
Offline
Former MystOnline Moderator

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 5:06 pm
Posts: 1591
Zidee, I am so sorry if you came across people that give the impression of wanting to boss others around or exclude them. Let 'em talk ... it's just talk...

ziidee wrote:
I am looking for a guild to belong to. One that wants everyone to feel welcome, have fun, and to help out. Like a team, working together.


I think that pretty much sums up what a) many people feel like and what's b) the best part of what the guilds can be and what c) I'd personally want them to be as well.

I love working in teams. It can be tricky, but I find it so fulfilling and you get a lot more accomplished than alone.


Last edited by ireenquench on Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Houston
Just wanted to add a link to this.

http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12601

The other thread can speak for itself, but I agree it is a good idea.

_________________
Waymet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:28 pm
Posts: 292
Let us remember to that even a heated discussion is showing interest and the goal "is" to show we are interested in participating and there "is" an interest in the concept of supporting or joining a guild.

Even if our postings and ideas end up to be all wrong and the new guild structure ends up totally different than anything we have suggested- the important thing is we made the suggestions. Helping others to understand where we are so far and encouraging them to get excited and interested enough to show their support and join in the discussion.

By posting responces to these threads and those on different forums you are inadvertently voicing your support or interest for any kind of guild structure. Guilds will have to be IC and OOC so sending someone who is showing a little interest to the forums would not be a bad idea especially if you are not interested in volunteering any information about your project at that time. We can't pass out flyer's (although we could have KI mails) to everyone that shows up. And those holding the KI mails would have to have a way to find the ones that appeared when they were not present.

It seems that those of us who do care will make the biggest impact if we try and answer the questions they ask as truthfully as we can or send them in a direction that could better help them find out more. And with our limited resources in cavern- the forums seem to be a great place to turn.

I would hope this section of the forum grows bigger than all the rest - with more threads and ideas than we can read in one sitting - showing we do care - even if we don't always agree.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:40 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:19 pm
Posts: 1161
Right now, in game (and paid) content, is accessible to supporters. It should always be so in my mind. Prevent peaple to join a guild just to have access to the content. less "paperwork" for everyone.

And no big guild perks should be given, for the very same reason.

Maintainers seams to have taken the good road as far as application is concerned.
Questions seams to be there more to know how you are than anything else.

A note to the greeters , would it be possible to have your application form public, rather than requiring to register to the board to read it ?
I like to know what questions i'll have to answers before i actually do anything.

I think that guild should just have a application form. In my case, bothering to fill such a form is proof for motivation anyway :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:46 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Posts: 2232
Location: Italy
I think that, on some level, some people are mistaking elitism for requirements of membership.

Elitism is when you say "we only take female avatars" or "we only take those who have over 1000 posts on a certain forum" - AKA something that rules you out even before you join for some arbitrary reason. I'm pretty sure that Cyan won't allow for that: as long as you're a paying customer you can apply for membership on a guild.

Membership requirements are a different thing. As an example, to join a club in real life you usually have to pay a monthly fee, and /or agree to spend a certain number of hours working for the society; if you refuse to do that, your application will most likely be rejected and/or you can be kicked out even if you're a paying member.

GoG (I'm sorry to drag them in every time, but they're the only official guild so far) asks new members to be available for two one-hour shifts each week, and to participate on their forums; while I don't think they'd kick you out in shame covered in feathers and tar if you miss a shift, I'm pretty sure that missing every shift in a row for weeks could impact negatively on your membership. ;)

I think the same thing will happen in the other guilds. Every willing person will be able to choose a guild to apply to, and he will be accepted and remain a member of that guild as long as he accepts the requirements and the rules.

(Wow, I'm verbose, aren't I? :lol:)

(edit: this is not me talking as a mod, this is me talking as myself and expressing an opinion)

_________________
Atrus aka Nahvah aka Ian Pertwee aka too many darn names :D
KI# 52953


Last edited by Ian Atrus on Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:58 am
Posts: 256
Location: Australia
Ziidee, there's a meeting 5PM cavern time on September 15th 2007 in the Relayercorps Bevin about the GoM for all explorers. I believe Lynuette from the RelayerCorps is hosting.

Feel free to drop in, ask questions, and find out more about all the ideas being thrown around.

And don't worry. Unless you start trolling, no one'll kick you out of that, at least. :P I doubt anyone would kick you out of the Guild either, if you were willing to help out, as it sounds you are. :)

_________________
Complete 15 issue archive of The Archiver, published by The Cavern Today, 2006-08

Old MOUL KI: 13986530
MOULa KI: 02058741


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:19 pm
Posts: 15
....even the moderator said:


"Membership requirements are a different thing. As an example, to join a club in real life you usually have to pay a monthly fee, and /or agree to spend a certain number of hours working for the society; if you refuse to do that, your application will most likely be rejected and/or you can be kicked out even if you're a paying member."


This is what I was saying. So, even though I pay my dues to play this game, I am subject to submitting an application (lets say I would like to be a greeter and belong to their guild), and then upon their acceptance outside of the game, I may or may not be restricted inside the game, or be kicked out? I should not have to

This is not right! I should not have to fill out any "forms".

Belonging to a guild can be one thing, level of participation in the guild should be another. If someone wants to spend 20 hours per day playing a game, fine. If another only wants to play for an hour or two a week, that should be OK too. Those who want to take an active role in the guild should be allowed to do so. Their actions will dictate whether or not they are contributing. The passive player should still be able to belong to whatever guild they choose.

Since no one really knows anyone, who's to say that someone wouldn't pad their resume. Then they could sneak their way into a guild. So, what is the point?

By leaving stuff like this to us, getting the players involved, was a big mistake, it's out of control.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:28 pm
Posts: 292
It's not a mistake even though it may be out of control at times. Remember this is only the beginning and to some- this whole system is a radical change from DRC spoon fed content!

We are being challenged to talk among ourselves and work together.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:48 pm
Posts: 746
GthG wrote:
Yep, nothing like throwing gas on a burning fire. This sure is a touchy subject, isn't it.
I can accept everyone's criticism, pro and con. However . . .when someone says this:

Frisky Badger wrote:
"It sounds to me like you've been excluded from a lot in your life and for that I'm sorry. "


. . .that is so uncalled for. You know nothing about me, and it is so far from the truth that it borders on ridiculous. Please no personal attacks. thx


You're right, that was uncalled for and I apologize. What you were saying about the people supporting the Maintainers was "so far from the truth that it borders on ridiculous" and I responded poorly; again, I apologize.

GthG wrote:
This is what I was saying. So, even though I pay my dues to play this game, I am subject to submitting an application (lets say I would like to be a greeter and belong to their guild), and then upon their acceptance outside of the game, I may or may not be restricted inside the game, or be kicked out? I should not have to


Read my previous post, or Jishin's, that "application" does not factor in any kind of decision for acceptance; there is no decision! If you show interest, that's it, you're in. I'm not sure how much more inclusive we could be...

_________________
Frisky Badger
Guild of Maintainers
My opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the Guild of Maintainers.
KI# 00140468


Last edited by Frisky Badger on Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron