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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:30 pm 
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I wanted to remind everyone that the meeting, proposing a Guild of Archivists in response to Reteltee's challenge to us, will be on Saturday, September 22nd, at 1400 KI time, in the Students of D'ni Knowledge's Bevin.

For those who don't want to follow the previous conversations, this is NOT an attempt to replace previous efforts being done in this regard. This is, rather, an attempt to get everyone together, to toss around ideas, and to get a sense of what needs to be done for an official, DRC (and Cyan) recognized Guild to exist.

I imagine many people will have agendas, plans, and expectations. The goal of this first meeting is to get those on the table, and pick and choose which ones are logical and can be done.

Just to get the process started, I'll list my plans and expectations.

1. I want more official resources on the D'ni and their history. I do not believe that Cyan has time to write them. Thus, I wish to provide Cyan with a very few (probably 1-3) freelance writers who, working closely with Cyan, will "translate" (i.e., write) D'ni documents, then to be reviewed by Cyan and released to the explorers, either in the game, or via the Guild of Archivists.

2. I want to thoroughly explore existing resources on the D'ni and their history. I'm talking in-depth studies of such things as the astrophysics of Teledahn, possible D'ni influences on the Southwest Pueblo tribes, and trying to link up the prophecies of the Watcher with past and current events, and submit those prophecies to various cryptographic formulas to seek hidden meaning. (Those are just examples, but they show the potential out there, and that's really just scratching the surface.

3. I want to get some real cross-group discussion going. We currently have five or six organizations really doing things, led by different people, all of whom are visionaries. It would be awesome if those people would start working together, crossing their areas of expertise.

I'm going to try to start promptly. We'll begin (with the first half-hour to hour, depending,) talking about basic ideas of what do we want from a GoA, should there even be a GoA, etc. After that, I'd like to spend some time talking about possible GoA projects, and GoA structure. Those last two topics will be highly preliminary, as they are subjects worth their own meetings, but it will at least give us a starting point.

So that's my idea. Feel free to work out your own here before the meeting, the more we work out here, the more focused the meeting itself will be.

**EDIT**

One last thing. I'll try to be in the cavern as much as possible this week. Feel free to PM me about this, and talk to me. I'm about as open about this idea as someone can be, since I don't really care about the specifics of how or who, as long as it actually happens.

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The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:45 am 
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Hey Doc I'll try and make it to the meeting.

There are a few ideas I would like to pass the Archivists for some discussion.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:37 pm 
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I'm entering the cavern now. The meeting is going to begin today, at 1400 KI time. I representatives from all our scholars can come. If you have any questions, my KI # is in my signature. You can find me in the Students of D'ni Knowledge's Neighborhood.

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The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:08 pm 
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Bother, I can't come today. Well, let me know how it goes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:45 pm 
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Well, the meeting didn't have as many people as I'd hoped, but those who showed up were enthusiastic, and I think we made real progress. The full log is at the bottom of this post.

A lot of the first meeting was me answering questions about "my" idea. Hopefully at the next meeting, more people will come with their ideas. This isn't an attempt for Doc to make a guild, it's an attempt to have a Guild of Archivists.

A few highlights:

[spoiler=What is the ultimate goal of the Guild of Archivists?]DocOlanA: It's my theory that the DRC (and Cyan) simply doesn't have the time to do the necessary translation. I wanted to offer a guild to support one or two scholars, who would then work with the DRC (aka Cyan) and help translate (aka write) new information on the D'ni.
DocOlanA: I approached Reteltee with that concept. He said that to do so, we would have to show first that we could make a working guild.
DocOlanA: So that's the plan. We make a working Guild of Archivists that will study, explore, and speculate on CURRENT D'ni knowledge that we have. That will show the DRC (and Cyan) that we're serious, that we're willing to work, and we're willing to help the cavern.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=What sorts of projects will the GoA accomplish?]DocOlanA: We have a lot of knowledge currently. We have the king books, we have the Watcher's words, we have a few journals on D'ni culture, and of course we have the ages, and D'ni itself, which is filled with all sorts of things indicative of the D'ni.
DocOlanA: For instance, just what causes Teledahn's sun to act so strangely? What sort of secrets are held if we start really analyzing the Watcher's "words"? Is there any evidence of D'ni influence on the Southwestern tribes that existed in New Mexico when the empire was at its height?
Sorceress: And that's D'ni alone. When the Writers start writing full Ages, we'd be researching these new worlds as well.
Shonda: So... physics, archiology, sociology....
DocOlanA: There's a whole lot of territory that we can research now, with existing materials, that no one has yet. And once we prove we can do that, and make it slick, professional, and get it out to the explorers . . . then we can push for the DRC to let us "translate" new material.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Why have a GoA at all? Why not just stick with current scholar groups?]DocOlanA: And let me just re-iterate - I'm not trying to take over anyone else's job. There will always be a place for the SoDK, and the DZS, and the DLF, and everyone else in the cavern. This is a specific project aimed towards having an OFFICIALLY recognized guild.
DocOlanA: I hope many of the people who are in existing scholarly guilds will join us, as more intelligent people getting together makes for a better guild, but I'm not trying to replace those organizations. It's just, the GoA will be focused on becoming official.[/spoiler]

There will be another meeting this Saturday, 09/29. I will be posting a separate thread so that people can vote on the best time. At the next meeting, we'll start doing some serious organizing, now that we're more or less aware of what kind of projects we'll be doing, and why.

[spoiler=Full Log](09/22 20:19:44) Shonda: In the long run, do you see this Archivist Guild bein a sub-part of one of the other five?
(09/22 20:19:54) DocOlanA: No. I want it to be the sixth major guild.
(09/22 20:19:58) Shonda: *Guild - sorry.
(09/22 20:20:17) Shonda: You have my sympathy - but that's going to be WAY hard to pull off.
(09/22 20:20:21) DocOlanA: Although there are some projects, like the Maintainers' age commentary project, where we would work with them, there is no current guild whose responsibilities in any way cover what a GoA would do.
(09/22 20:20:51) Shonda: How do you see the role of this guild?
(09/22 20:21:02) DocOlanA: The basic problem is that we're not getting any more information about the D'ni. The Students of D'ni Knowledge received a creation myth, over half a year ago, and that's been it.
(09/22 20:21:40) Shonda: Who did they get this myth from?
(09/22 20:21:42) DocOlanA: It's my theory that the DRC (and Cyan) simply doesn't have the time to do the necessary translation. I wanted to offer a guild to support one or two scholars, who would then work with the DRC (aka Cyan) and help translate (aka write) new information on the D'ni.
(09/22 20:21:46) DocOlanA: We got it from Nick White.
(09/22 20:22:06) Shonda: Oh, okay...
(09/22 20:22:06) DocOlanA: I approached Reteltee with that concept. He said that to do so, we would have to show first that we could make a working guild.
(09/22 20:22:18) weepingwillow: erm where is every one
(09/22 20:22:27) Sorceress: Community Room.
(09/22 20:22:46) DocOlanA: So that's the plan. We make a working Guild of Archivists that will study, explore, and speculate on CURRENT D'ni knowledge that we have. That will show the DRC (and Cyan) that we're serious, that we're willing to work, and we're willing to help the cavern.
(09/22 20:22:49) weepingwillow shrugs
(09/22 20:22:49) Peregryn sits quietly and listens.
(09/22 20:23:21) weepingwillow: helooo
(09/22 20:23:27) Shonda: By current, do you mean D'ni technical knowledge discovered to this date?
(09/22 20:23:58) weepingwillow: classroom?
(09/22 20:24:19) weepingwillow: oh ok
(09/22 20:24:22) Sgt Troy: Er where is everyone?
(09/22 20:24:35) tano: Probably lost
(09/22 20:24:39) DocOlanA: We are in the community room. That's the big auditorium thingie.
(09/22 20:24:50) From Shonda: Do you need a silent greeter to tell folks where we are?
(09/22 20:24:56) Sgt Troy: oh yeah the auditorium thingie
(09/22 20:25:06) To Shonda: That would be awesome. Thanks.
(09/22 20:25:14) From Shonda: No problelm!
(09/22 20:25:39) DocOlanA: We have a lot of knowledge currently. We have the king books, we have the Watcher's words, we have a few journals on D'ni culture, and of course we have the ages, and D'ni itself, which is filled with all sorts of things indicative of the D'ni.
(09/22 20:25:52) Sgt Troy: Thanks
(09/22 20:26:17) DocOlanA: To this date, there have been many disparate attempts to analyze some of this information. From discussion groups like the Students of D'ni Knowledge, to more technical groups like the Zoologists or the Astronomers. I'm hoping to form a Guild, with the intention of becoming an official, DRC recognized guild, to give these scholars a home.
(09/22 20:26:48) Shonda: So you see it as a University - of sorts?
(09/22 20:27:11) Sgt Troy: No he sees it as a Guild
(09/22 20:27:44) DocOlanA: Partly. I'd love to get a website going (or perhaps submit regularly to an existing website, like D'ni Desk Reference,) archiving information. But I'm really seeing its core function as one of research.
(09/22 20:27:50) Shonda: From what he's describing, a place of study is what's under consideration.
(09/22 20:27:51) tano: There would be no point having it if it wasnt a university
(09/22 20:28:12) Sorceress: And that's D'ni alone. When the Writers start writing full Ages, we'd be researching these new worlds as well.
(09/22 20:28:50) Shonda: Sounds like there's sustainability already.
(09/22 20:28:56) tano: So r u going to leave
(09/22 20:29:10) DocOlanA: For instance, just what causes Teledahn's sun to act so strangely? What sort of secrets are held if we start really analyzing the Watcher's "words"? Is there any evidence of D'ni influence on the Southwestern tribes that existed in New Mexico when the empire was at its height?
(09/22 20:29:51) [ Vohkooth ]: Gonna NEED to find the Regeltavok of Oorpah if anyone is ever going to write an age because you have to write Garohevtee. There not enuff time! Destruction is going to come way before we even see a single age! You have to think this Sharper
(09/22 20:29:53) Shonda: So... physics, archiology, sociology....
(09/22 20:30:06) DocOlanA: There's a whole lot of territory that we can research now, with existing materials, that no one has yet. And once we prove we can do that, and make it slick, professional, and get it out to the explorers . . . then we can push for the DRC to let us "translate" new material.
(09/22 20:31:12) Sorceress: Watson has sounded the challenge. Our research could help us survive this war, this "Destruction."
(09/22 20:31:27) Sorceress: And help us grow after it's over.
(09/22 20:31:34) Shonda: Sounds like the most viable of any guild so far, except for maybe the Messengers and Greeters.
(09/22 20:32:20) Shonda: Writers and Maintainers will try to head us off, though. You DO realize that?
(09/22 20:32:29) DocOlanA: Why would they?
(09/22 20:32:36) DocOlanA: Why wouldn't the guilds support each other?
(09/22 20:32:41) Shonda: Because they'll see it as a sub-division of theirs.
(09/22 20:32:50) Shonda: But.. that can be overcome.
(09/22 20:32:53) weepingwillow: arn'e they doing the same thing though?
(09/22 20:32:57) weepingwillow: arn't
(09/22 20:33:01) DocOlanA: I'm tentatively a member of the Maintainers, because of their age commentary project. But no, it's not a subdivision of any guild. That's the problem.
(09/22 20:33:03) Shonda: The definately are, Weeping.
(09/22 20:33:10) DocOlanA: Writers write new ages. Maintainers are looking to do beta-testing.
(09/22 20:33:25) weepingwillow: and we do the research?
(09/22 20:33:30) DocOlanA: No one focuses on the D'ni. Considering that we're supposedly restoring their civilization . . . this seems to me to be a grave error.
(09/22 20:33:43) Uchee: Yes, I agree
(09/22 20:33:45) Shonda: Don't get me wrong - I fully support this as a separate Guild. I just want to be sure we know exactly what we're going to face from the other groups.
(09/22 20:34:40) DocOlanA: That's one big thing. I don't want this to be a competition. There's a hole in what's available, I want to fill it. I think the Writers, the Maintainers, and all the others are awesome, they're great guilds, great ideas, and I expect to see great things from them. But except for the Maintainers' age commentary project, no one is doing this kind of thing, and even the Maintainers aren't going far enough.
(09/22 20:35:11) weepingwillow: in what way
(09/22 20:36:23) DocOlanA: I'm talking about discovering new information. Using existing sources, yes, but applying to those sources a professional level of scholarship and research.
(09/22 20:36:31) Sorceress: I think we might have to produce something concrete to get attention from the other Guilds. I think everyone is waiting for everyone else to really start things, unless I'm mistaken.
(09/22 20:36:44) DocOlanA: I completely agree, Sorceress.
(09/22 20:36:53) weepingwillow: so do I
(09/22 20:36:56) Shonda: I tend to agree, also.
(09/22 20:37:05) weepingwillow: BUT where to start- is the question!
(09/22 20:37:19) [ Vohkooth ]: If this is a 'Real Time' game as it says then there simply is not enuff time. the War is HERE now! the BAhro make us see what they want us to see, thats why we don't see the war and the cavern the way it 'Really is' what we see as a beven here is nothing but a pile of stone and debree, ever wonder why you run into invisible walls etc. do you see it now? not enuff time.
(09/22 20:37:23) tano: Me too and i'm hard to agree on things
(09/22 20:37:50) Shonda: Vohkooth, we'll just have to make do with what we can see, until we can see more.
(09/22 20:37:53) DocOlanA: But we can start things now. For instance, for some time I've been researching the mythology of the Navajo, the Hopi, the Anasazi, and the pueblo peoples, in an attempt to find correlations between them and D'ni. In addition, I've been trying to match up the Watchers' prophecies with both historical and modern events, and I've been retranscribing them the way they were given (five lines at a time, unseperated.)
(09/22 20:38:13) Uchee: Is that all you really see Vohkooth?
(09/22 20:38:36) DocOlanA: We are running out of time, Vohkooth. But how are we to deal with the Bahro, when no one is bothering to discover their history?
(09/22 20:38:45) Sorceress: I've started replaying Myst V, in hopes of fidning out more with Watson's revelation.
(09/22 20:39:05) Sorceress: It may not be 100% accurate, but right now it's all we have/
(09/22 20:39:13) Shonda: So WHERE do you want to start, Doc?
(09/22 20:39:23) DocOlanA: By talking to people, just like this.
(09/22 20:40:02) Shonda: Do you/we have a beginning archive on line already?
(09/22 20:40:21) Shonda: What Nick gave you, for example?
(09/22 20:40:27) DocOlanA: See, I want input from more than just me. In my mind, the best organization is one made up of certain "Masters" in the Guild, heading projects. i.e., explorer A is researching the astronomy of Teledahn, explorer B is researching the Book of Berenni. Attached to them is anyone assisting them with the project.
(09/22 20:40:42) DocOlanA: What Nick gave us can be found at the Students of D'ni Knowledge's website, and other places (www.sodk.org)
(09/22 20:40:51) Sorceress: There's a few websites that already have archives, but maybe we should have our own?
(09/22 20:40:53) DocOlanA: That's another thing we'd need, though. A good webmaster, and a website.
(09/22 20:41:09) DocOlanA: Or else possibly getting in touch with another encyclopediac site and submitting to that.
(09/22 20:41:43) tano: I think there should be a different bevin from the rest one that looks like a universi
(09/22 20:41:53) tano: University
(09/22 20:42:03) Sorceress: DPWR is still kicking, and I've been submitting stuff to that.
(09/22 20:42:10) Shonda: That may come AFTER the DRC recognizes us.
(09/22 20:42:23) [ Vohkooth ]: I too get rather deep into this as you all do but for the 'in game' part , real time- which it is not episodes) but the storyline and asp the timeline get compleatly corrupted
(09/22 20:42:30) DocOlanA: The problem is, they won't recognize us until we have an organization, and we are producing.
(09/22 20:42:34) Shonda: Right now, a new house isn't a major need, is it?
(09/22 20:42:39) tano: Or an age thats linked from here
(09/22 20:44:05) tano: Not really i think we should start doing things for this guild so they can get the support they need
(09/22 20:44:21) DocOlanA: Shonda, we could probably get by now by submitting things to DPWR, especially if we could ask them to give us a tag or something so people know what the GoA submitted it.
(09/22 20:45:13) tano: like maybe spread the information to all of the explorers and have classes about it to
(09/22 20:45:53) DocOlanA: That would be great, tano. But to do that, we need to have an organization.
(09/22 20:46:10) tano: Isnt that what this is now
(09/22 20:46:10) DocOlanA: But that's another thing to think about. Should we include classes for explorers as part of what we do, or should we be purely research?
(09/22 20:46:45) tano: Or maybe start a class in somebodies relto
(09/22 20:46:59) Shonda: If we do good research, the requests will come for student status.
(09/22 20:47:40) Shonda: But before we start teaching non-group people, we probably need to study and share between ourselves.
(09/22 20:47:50) Sorceress: I like the idea of classes, ones that go more in-depth than ResEng orientations, no offense to them.
(09/22 20:47:55) DocOlanA: So, starting out with research, maybe classes further on down the line as there becomes a need for it?
(09/22 20:48:27) Shonda: Yes - the research will HAVE to stand up to examination from all sides before it goes out to the general explorer public.
(09/22 20:48:49) Shonda: Otherwise, it'll just get written off as speculation.
(09/22 20:48:52) tano: If people wouldve told the drc about their soccerball then while we are telling them about that we might be able to convence them
(09/22 20:49:05) [ Vohkooth ]: the war is HERE! according to the cliff hanger Im going by 'in game' and what Watson said IS the biggest Deception of all , he said it is going to take YEARS! what a joke! for the 'in game oranted person' and also some that are not. Not enuff time to learn D'ni and everything I have already said. Cyan has to be the one who lays out the basic foundation and rules then we could go from there. I don;'t think Cyan is going to open up this game as open source any time soon
(09/22 20:50:04) DocOlanA: Quite simply, Vohkooth, they're going to have to. It's become clear that they don't have time to give us this kind of content. At some point, they're going to have to let third party writers help them, or else hire more people.
(09/22 20:50:17) Shonda tries to figue out where soccer comes into it...
(09/22 20:50:25) DocOlanA: My ultimate goal is creating an organization from which they can choose these people.
(09/22 20:50:28) weepingwillow laughs
(09/22 20:51:10) Shonda: So - in a very real sense - this is the beginning of a storyline writers guild!! I like that - the storyline needs some help.
(09/22 20:51:56) tano: The soccerball the drc lost in minkata if we told them we found it themn we could tell them about this
(09/22 20:52:00) DocOlanA: Not exactly, Shonda. More a research writer's guild. For instance, when we become "official," as I hope we will, I'm hoping that some of us - probably no more than one or two - will be tapped by Cyan, sign a whole bunch of NDAs, and start writing things like the journals that are scattered about.
(09/22 20:52:26) Shonda: That's exactly what I meant - and it's a great idea.
(09/22 20:52:57) DocOlanA: For instance, Rand sends a bulletpoint list, outlining the D'ni mercantile system. A writer writes a journal of a merchant on an expedition to an age, which involves lots of bits about trade and commerce. Cyan approves the journal, and the GoA releases the new "translation" to the explorers.
(09/22 20:52:58) Shonda: And if the soccer ball was truly wanted, the DRC would definately have missed it by now.
(09/22 20:53:20) weepingwillow laughs
(09/22 20:53:20) DocOlanA: That's my ultimate goal. But in order to do that, we have to become official. And in order to do that, we have to have a smoothly working organization in place that is unofficial.
(09/22 20:53:21) tano: They said they looking for it awhile back didnt they
(09/22 20:53:43) Shonda: Great - so let's do it.
(09/22 20:53:44) tano: We just have to make a mark for this place
(09/22 20:53:53) DocOlanA: All right.
(09/22 20:53:57) Shonda: And Tano - I told them where they could find at leat one of those balls.
(09/22 20:53:59) tano: Just for this guys i'm in
(09/22 20:54:05) DocOlanA: So here's what I want you folk to do.
(09/22 20:54:11) Uchee: Me too
(09/22 20:54:18) DocOlanA: Shorah MJ.
(09/22 20:54:22) MustardJeep: Howdy
(09/22 20:54:34) tano: Shourah
(09/22 20:54:41) tano: Shorah
(09/22 20:54:52) Shonda: Howdy, MustardJee[/
(09/22 20:55:02) tano: So as u were saying
(09/22 20:55:07) DocOlanA: First . . . we need ideas. I don't know if you've been following it, but a lot of the guilds are having lots of trouble with organization and logistics. I don't want those kinds of troubles, or power struggles.
(09/22 20:55:10) Shonda: *MustardJeep - sorry...
(09/22 20:55:36) DocOlanA: I'd like a smooth organization where form follows function. In other words, the organization should make it easier to do what we need to do, which is to research, study, and write.
(09/22 20:55:49) [ Vohkooth ]: only way I see everyione having a change at age creation is if Cyan makes it like what you see in secondlife SL or the SIMS or There.com where each guild will have its own nexas on a separite shard where every member has their own 'Blank age' and you will be able to use any objects sky ground the game currently has in it to make your age. then everyone will beable to create.
(09/22 20:56:05) DocOlanA: Being a stickler for D'ni history, I'd most like it to follow the actual structure of the D'ni guilds, but that's far less important than having a structure that's not about power, but about production.
(09/22 20:56:47) DocOlanA: Vohkooth, we're not talking about age creation. That's the Guild of Writers' job.
(09/22 20:56:53) Shonda: So you want ideas on what to research and in what order?
(09/22 20:58:08) Shonda: I'm going to have to make a surface trip to pick up the books on this....
(09/22 20:58:17) [ Vohkooth ]: Thats the other thing the guild need to be more defined in as to what are the differant jobs that are within a Guild?
(09/22 20:58:25) DocOlanA: Yes. Also, we need people who are dedicated, and willing to take the time to research. I'm not just talking about cataloguing information already found in the game, I'm talking about discovering more. Having someone skilled in astronomy actually run the calculations to tell us what Teledahn's orbital mechanics look like. Someone who knows biology actually study to speculate on the ecosystem of Riven.
(09/22 20:58:33) tano: If we could find even some of the small details that the d'ni could remember easily then we could tell them
(09/22 20:58:49) DocOlanA: I don't care if you have a doctorate in it or not, but you need to be willing to study the subject.
(09/22 20:59:13) tano: I'll take the time to research for u
(09/22 20:59:13) Shonda: Some of it is, Vohkooth - Atrius wrote them.
(09/22 20:59:34) DocOlanA: Hence why I'm buying all the books on southwestern tribe mythology and history I can find :)
(09/22 21:00:01) Shonda: Eh- on THAT score, look for somebody who lives it, Doc.
(09/22 21:00:02) tano: maybe yeesha would know more about D'ni customs or atrius
(09/22 21:00:18) Uchee: Wonderful, I was wondering if using our surface knowledge could be applied to the research I have been researching indian history for years
(09/22 21:00:49) DocOlanA: See, that's even better.
(09/22 21:00:59) Shonda: What's known about the tribal southwest is very thin - and what's accurately put into books is thinner.
(09/22 21:01:00) tano: Maybe because everywhere u see the D'ni places look like native places
(09/22 21:01:30) tano: The cultures do seem similer
(09/22 21:01:31) Uchee: And some are very acurate to them
(09/22 21:01:39) DocOlanA: That would be a perfect project for you, then. We're talking about tribes that literally lived right over D'ni for their entire existance. Did they ever make contact with the D'ni? Did they have myths of underground cities? I know the Navajo did, and they had myths of beast-men as well.
(09/22 21:01:46) [ Vohkooth ]: Hopi indains
(09/22 21:01:57) DocOlanA: But you see what I'm talking about? The possibilities are endless.
(09/22 21:02:02) Shonda: A very few are, Uchee - that's true. Mostly by Native American authors.
(09/22 21:02:11) MustardJeep: DocOlanA "discovering" D'ni knowledge is something to be done with great care, Cyan's only real Rule for fans is stay out of canon which most all of D'ni is covered by.
(09/22 21:02:23) Uchee: as well as Navajo NW tribes with the totems and I would love to help in this area
(09/22 21:02:32) DocOlanA: MJ, I'm not talking about making up any of this stuff.
(09/22 21:02:34) Shonda: Mustard, what, exactly is cannon?
(09/22 21:02:46) tano: I never thought about this but maybe the D'ni helped build the ancient pyramids of egypt
(09/22 21:02:56) DocOlanA: I'm talking about doing the research, and publishing our findings.
(09/22 21:03:10) MustardJeep: Taking things like the tribal ledgends could be a good start to side stories
(09/22 21:03:25) Shonda: Are you going to join us, Mustard?
(09/22 21:03:32) Uchee: I have many oh this is great :)
(09/22 21:03:59) Uchee: exactly as in spiderwoman
(09/22 21:04:08) DocOlanA: I'm not saying, "Officially, from Cyan, the Navajo were influenced by the D'ni." I'm saying, "According to Uchee's report, there are twenty possible points of contact throughout the southwestern tribes' histories, starting with the possibility of Clovis culture expansion in the time of Ri'neref . . ."
(09/22 21:04:14) Sgt Troy sneezes
(09/22 21:04:36) [ Vohkooth ]: wow
(09/22 21:04:37) Sgt Troy roars with laughter
(09/22 21:05:02) DocOlanA: We're researchers. And just like the early Egyptologists and Paleontologists, every so often our research will be wrong, and we'll have to correct it. But most of the time, if we do it right, we should gain a better understanding of the D'ni.
(09/22 21:05:09) tano laughs
(09/22 21:05:19) [ Vohkooth ]: agrees
(09/22 21:05:37) DocOlanA: Then once we prove we can do that, that we're willing to do the research, and that we DO understand D'ni . . . then we can see if Cyan will let us help them out directly by actually writing some new D'ni "translations", under their review and approval at every stage, of course.
(09/22 21:05:42) Shonda: How would you like to receive these ideas you've asked for? Web posting?
(09/22 21:06:40) Sorceress: Now I'll have to figure out what to research. :)
(09/22 21:07:04) [ Vohkooth ]: reserch the Bahro
(09/22 21:07:08) tano: I'm interested in what games the D'ni played
(09/22 21:07:14) [ Vohkooth ]: bahrogliphs
(09/22 21:07:36) DocOlanA: Well, I think we'll probably need a few more planning meetings. How does next week, this time sound?
(09/22 21:07:39) Sorceress: I think Ireen would know far more than I would about bahroglyphs.
(09/22 21:07:45) [ Vohkooth ]: thay all actualy tell you the whole story you know that
(09/22 21:07:51) Sorceress: Sounds good to me.
(09/22 21:07:53) DocOlanA: I'd love it if Ireen would come next time to lend her expertise.
(09/22 21:08:04) Uchee: me too :)
(09/22 21:08:05) [ Vohkooth ]: YES
(09/22 21:08:09) MustardJeep: What you are suggesting is rather interesting DocOlanA, and could give starting Age Writers some project ideas to get their feet wet on.
(09/22 21:08:17) tano: sure
(09/22 21:08:34) DocOlanA: But this isn't just me forming a guild, it's us forming a guild. You guys pretty much know what I'm looking for in the GoA. Would you folks like to add anything? Things you disagree with, or other things you'd like to see?
(09/22 21:09:18) Shonda: I'll give you my wish list after I've tried doing the research for a while.
(09/22 21:09:24) tano: well no but if we got this guild together could i be apart of it
(09/22 21:10:01) tano: I'm going to research what games the D'ni played
(09/22 21:10:19) tano: like starting with the city
(09/22 21:10:25) [ Vohkooth ]: Ireen's tours she should start a weekly tour routs and get it posted on the events page and forums. and repeat the tours too. might have to get a few people to do the tours of the bahrogliphs through out the cavern
(09/22 21:11:24) Uchee: Good idea :)
(09/22 21:12:06) [ Vohkooth ]: now that was interaction and also very intresting and informitive and could also update the tours as we get more info from our reserch
(09/22 21:12:11) tano: So how much longer is this meeting and was that bahro
(09/22 21:12:32) [ Vohkooth ]: yes it was
(09/22 21:12:35) MustardJeep: that was a Bahro
(09/22 21:12:54) tano: Maybe the Bahro like the idea
(09/22 21:13:03) tano: Lol
(09/22 21:13:20) Uchee: :)
(09/22 21:14:04) tano: I wish we could disguise as Bahro so we can research them more
(09/22 21:14:52) tano: So is this meeting over
(09/22 21:14:55) DocOlanA: Well, a lot of us are poring over the King journals to find hints of Bahro.
(09/22 21:14:59) DocOlanA: I think that's about it. Just to recap:
(09/22 21:15:05) Shonda: Does appear that way.
(09/22 21:15:21) [ Vohkooth ]: yes
(09/22 21:15:37) tano: Is it alright if i go research now
(09/22 21:15:43) DocOlanA: We agree there's a need for a Guild of Archivists. We agree that there's lots of things we can still research. We agree that we'll need some kind of place to publish information, either on an existing site or getting our own (a wiki open to editing by members might be nice.)
(09/22 21:15:57) From Shonda: If you even find the word 'bahro' in one of those King journals, I'd like the citation.
(09/22 21:16:02) DocOlanA: Incidentally, the colors of the GoA are gold. That's why I wear a jacket that color.
(09/22 21:16:21) To Shonda: No such word, but try reading the Shomat story sometime. Some of us speculate that "Lemash, the Head" is actually a bahro.
(09/22 21:16:32) [ Vohkooth ]: there is one D'ni probverb that rather disterbs me for what it says on the last line
(09/22 21:16:37) DocOlanA: Feel free to wear gold if you want to show your support openly.
(09/22 21:16:40) From Shonda: Read Shomat.
(09/22 21:16:58) tano: Where r the support shirts
(09/22 21:17:09) [ Vohkooth ]: yea
(09/22 21:17:13) [ Vohkooth ]: lol
(09/22 21:17:16) Shonda: For now, I'd prefer not to have a t-shirt.
(09/22 21:17:16) DocOlanA: We'll have another meeting next Saturday (I'll post a poll in the Guilds forum on mystonline.com finding the best time,) where we'll try to hammer out some organizational details and actually get started.
(09/22 21:17:30) Sorceress: The Guild shirts are in Kirel, but they're only for the Big Five right now.
(09/22 21:17:37) DocOlanA: There is no official T-shirt, because we're not official, tano. But you can wear a T-shirt colored gold, or a jacket colored gold.
(09/22 21:18:07) tano: ok i guess i will
(09/22 21:18:32) DocOlanA: So, thank you everyone for coming, thank you for your opinions, watch the Guild board for more information about next week's meeting.
(09/22 21:18:41) Sorceress claps her hands
(09/22 21:18:46) Shonda cheers
(09/22 21:18:46) weepingwillow claps her hands
(09/22 21:18:47) Uchee claps her hands
(09/22 21:18:49) Peregryn nods his head
(09/22 21:18:49) tano claps his hands
(09/22 21:18:54) [ Vohkooth ]: A tree falls, a page arises - Ascarab is captured, ink is released. - Life is TAKEN, and Age is givin.
(09/22 21:19:13) tano claps his hands
(09/22 21:19:14) weepingwillow: Very poetic
(09/22 21:19:16) tano claps his hands
(09/22 21:19:35) tano bows
(09/22 21:19:38) Shonda: Very Somatish....
(09/22 21:19:48) Shonda: Somatish.... whatever...
(09/22 21:19:49) MustardJeep: well that does set a tone doesn't it.
(09/22 21:19:59) Shonda: Bloody one at that.
(09/22 21:20:02) DocOlanA: I'm working on the Watcher's Words right now.
(09/22 21:20:10) DocOlanA: Doing some analysis on them.
(09/22 21:20:39) [ Vohkooth ]: but literaly does that mean with each age the guild writes someone has to die
(09/22 21:20:52) tano: i'm going to go research the D'ni games maybe i'll find something the drc didnt
(09/22 21:21:01) Shonda: If you're writing in beetle ink I guess it does.
(09/22 21:21:16) MustardJeep: Yes, but the one that dies is usually a small annoying bug
(09/22 21:21:17) Uchee: and i'm putting indian lore to the glyphs
(09/22 21:21:31) Shonda: Wonder if the Great Tree bevin has come up with a better ink source....
(09/22 21:22:00) [ Vohkooth ]: so the guilds and age creation are the Deception then going on that because you need the special ink to write
(09/22 21:22:04) [ Vohkooth ]: and age
(09/22 21:22:37) Shonda: The deception may be what we do to ourselves, Vohkooth.
(09/22 21:22:46) MustardJeep: nope the deception is peace in the cavern
(09/22 21:22:57) Shonda: We're really quite good at self-deception.
(09/22 21:23:17) Shonda: Hadn't ever noticed real peace in the Cavern. Not in five years.
(09/22 21:23:42) DocOlanA: Exactly. We have found a way, but we haven't made a home.
(09/22 21:24:09) DocOlanA: The guilds will help do that. We still have most of us who only show up for the PR week of the DRC. This isn't a home to them.
(09/22 21:25:16) Shonda: That may not be a bad thing, Doc. Let's wait and see. Gives us more quiet time to work in.
(09/22 21:25:29) MustardJeep: Sorry I missed the bulk of the meeting, lost track of time. But what your suggesting Doc is interesting, it might turn into something like the Ideas Guild before you know it.
(09/22 21:26:23) Shonda: So - ARE you going to join us, Mustard?
(09/22 21:26:27) DocOlanA: And let me just re-iterate - I'm not trying to take over anyone else's job. There will always be a place for the SoDK, and the DZS, and the DLF, and everyone else in the cavern. This is a specific project aimed towards having an OFFICIALLY recognized guild.
(09/22 21:26:37) tano: should i be thanked for telling people about this because i really dont care if i am
(09/22 21:26:54) Shonda thanks Tano
(09/22 21:26:56) MustardJeep: Shonda, no I'm for the Maintainers, and Doc I didn't say you were.
(09/22 21:27:15) Shonda: Can you not be for both?
(09/22 21:27:19) DocOlanA: I hope many of the people who are in existing scholarly guilds will join us, as more intelligent people getting together makes for a better guild, but I'm not trying to replace those organizations. It's just, the GoA will be focused on becoming official.
(09/22 21:27:32) DocOlanA: I know, MJ, but I wanted to make it clear. A lot of people have accused me of that.
(09/22 21:27:37) [ Vohkooth ]: there is too much against the restoration like I said before , we can try , but with out some sersous help very soon. won't be even enuff time to 'Make a home' in the Guilds , which is what the Bahro are against and Atrus are against as well!!!!
(09/22 21:28:00) MustardJeep: :roll: Not me I just point the odd finger here or there. :P
(09/22 21:28:07) Shonda: Interesting - I haven't talked to Atrus in a while. Guess I need to do that again.
(09/22 21:28:07) MustardJeep starts to laugh
(09/22 21:28:28) [ Vohkooth ]: Atrus does not want this cavern to be restored
(09/22 21:28:44) Shonda: Now... I wonder why he'd feel like that? Suppose he's right?
(09/22 21:28:51) DocOlanA: Atrus is not restoring the cavern. We are.
(09/22 21:29:10) DocOlanA: Vohkooth, if you're against the restoration, then why are you here?
(09/22 21:29:20) [ Vohkooth ]: Atrus did try to restore the cavern
(09/22 21:29:22) tano: Maybe we shouldnt be trying to restore d'ni but make a new one
(09/22 21:29:26) MustardJeep: I am serious though I can see something like this being a good resource, research into close encounters with D'ni could start a few things
(09/22 21:29:49) [ Vohkooth ]: but ahhhh tano
(09/22 21:29:54) DocOlanA: And he gave up, because he couldn't face what D'ni had become. We can face it. D'ni had a lot of problems. We can do it better.
(09/22 21:29:57) Shonda: There's a journal entry in a blue relto you might need to take a second look at, though. On the restoration of theme.
(09/22 21:30:37) MustardJeep 's personal goal is not the restoration of D'ni
(09/22 21:30:47) Shonda: I'm honestly not the least bit interested in restoring what was. I'm VERY interested in building something new.
(09/22 21:31:03) DocOlanA: Regardless, we need more information on what was.
(09/22 21:31:08) DocOlanA: Hence, the Guild of Archivists.
(09/22 21:31:12) Shonda: True. No argument there.
(09/22 21:31:20) Uchee: True
(09/22 21:31:25) Sorceress nods her head
(09/22 21:31:41) [ Vohkooth ]: but it is in our nature we can't help it, the Bahro have seen it more than once, corruption from within due to pride and greed
(09/22 21:31:42) Shonda: I'd like to be well aware of what to avoid, and what we can re-use.
(09/22 21:31:50) MustardJeep: Might I suggest start with some of the smaller holes, leave the big gaps for much later on.
(09/22 21:32:03) tano: in the city whats inside the danger zones
(09/22 21:32:19) Shonda: Mustard, you know very well there's no other way TO do it than start small.
(09/22 21:32:25) DocOlanA: Well, unfortunately we have no new material, and the DRC doesn't seem inclined to release new material. So we'll be starting with what we have.
(09/22 21:32:28) MustardJeep starts to laugh
(09/22 21:32:32) Uchee: Will our work be able to be evuated by Cyan for acuracy do you suppose?
(09/22 21:32:35) DocOlanA: Which is pretty much all small stuff.
(09/22 21:32:35) Shonda (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(09/22 21:32:43) MustardJeep: never hurts to state the obious every now and then
(09/22 21:33:03) DocOlanA: Uchee - Maybe, I don't know. What I do know is that we should have our own internal review process as well, to make sure everything published is official. And everything published should have sources and records.
(09/22 21:33:23) tano: It would be able to research if we could research the nonreachable places
(09/22 21:33:36) Uchee: I totally agree
(09/22 21:33:43) MustardJeep: want to here a Idea?
(09/22 21:33:53) tano: Yah
(09/22 21:33:56) Uchee: sure
(09/22 21:33:57) DocOlanA: But I'll tell you a secret. A lot of this stuff, I'm betting Cyan doesn't know. I do freelance writing for a fantasy campaign setting called Arcanis, and half the time when I ask the head of that design team about a certain aspect in the world that I'm going to write about, he says, "We don't know, you make it up and we'll review it."
(09/22 21:34:18) Uchee: :))
(09/22 21:34:23) [ Vohkooth ]: Atrus finaly saw that, we just don't learn from our mistakes, and doomed to repeat them. bahro do not want to go through that again
(09/22 21:34:33) DocOlanA: Unless you're J.R.R. Tolkien, you're not going to design every single miniscule aspect of the world right off. You design it as it becomes necessary, and have a good continuity editor to make sure it all fits.
(09/22 21:34:37) MustardJeep: Filling in the non-existant places is a sort of a pet project I am using to learn modeling
(09/22 21:34:57) MustardJeep: pick one small area and try to build it
(09/22 21:35:31) MustardJeep: for the purposes here it could be like taking existing knowledge of say aztec farming and sketching out D'ni farm ages
(09/22 21:35:57) [ Vohkooth ]: mmm
(09/22 21:36:08) [ Vohkooth ]: yep
(09/22 21:36:24) [ Vohkooth ]: step farming
(09/22 21:36:31) DocOlanA: We're not designing any original material until we get Cyan's approval. This is not going to be another fan storyline. We've got SR for that.
(09/22 21:36:45) MustardJeep: there is a big history IC of overenginnered d'ni modern day knockoffs but the basics would allow you to get started till there are offical hints
(09/22 21:37:12) DocOlanA: Now, we may say, "Based on the evidence, and the culture, it's most likely that these farming techniques were used, since these cultures are similar and they all used it."
(09/22 21:37:47) MustardJeep: Doc that is one thing that you and I disagree on, a lot of what you are talking about is just plain creating knowledge.
(09/22 21:37:51) DocOlanA: But I'll say this now, there will be NO fan storylines. No "new translations" discovered, no "restored" projects. We will be analyzing the official documents that we already have, and we will draw conclusions based on those documents.
(09/22 21:38:10) [ Vohkooth ]: also alot of artifacts from other ages were brought in to the cavern too
(09/22 21:38:38) MustardJeep nods
(09/22 21:38:41) tano: Seeya i'm going to research and i'll bring notes with me next week
(09/22 21:38:52) DocOlanA: Not really. In the SoDK meetings, we discovered in the Shomat story that Shomat violated a rule by not burning the linking book once he discovered a sentient species in an age. Thus, the conclusion we can draw is that previously, probably during the time of Ri'neref, there was such a law on the books.
(09/22 21:38:55) [ Vohkooth ]: just wonder just how far Cyan has taken things
(09/22 21:38:58) DocOlanA: It's things like that.
(09/22 21:39:11) MustardJeep: something like the harvester in Er'cana shows the possible layout fairly clearly of D'ni mass farming
(09/22 21:39:12) Uchee: same here, this has been great! Byew for now
(09/22 21:39:18) [ Vohkooth ]: how deep have they weaved this whole story etc together
(09/22 21:39:22) Uchee: Bye
(09/22 21:40:01) MustardJeep Hmm
(09/22 21:40:20) Sorceress: Doc, do you want people to focus on D'ni history, or can this be expanded to the Myst games? I have an idea for research but I'm afraid it's too far away from D'ni focus.
(09/22 21:41:55) [ Vohkooth ]: like to see evadence of a grand puzzle where you will have to research for the answers and though all of the games and books to find the clues and have to collect everything up , it is a group puzzle on maga porportions
(09/22 21:42:29) DocOlanA: The individual projects we can determine once the organization is set up, but I'm inclined to say that anything D'ni related, including the actions of the D'ni remnant as outlined in the Myst games and the novels, as well as the Bahro, are fair game.
(09/22 21:43:26) [ Vohkooth ]: ok
(09/22 21:43:30) Sorceress: Cool :)
(09/22 21:44:21) Sorceress: Well, I'm off to get started brainstorming. Thanks for the meeting Doc!
(09/22 21:44:26) MustardJeep: interesting, and a very big field to work in if you include all that
(09/22 21:44:39) Sorceress: Bye all! :)
(09/22 21:45:05) DocOlanA: Well, most of what we do is going to require very dedicated scholars who actually know something about their line of study.
(09/22 21:45:05) rivenraft (I'm on the surface, be back in a minute):
(09/22 21:45:25) MustardJeep: Just make sure to keep it fun
(09/22 21:45:28) DocOlanA: That being the case, I'm inclined to let people research whatever they have the knowledge to research.
(09/22 21:46:03) DocOlanA: I'll be honest, the guild probably has even stricter restrictions than the writers. They just have to know how to code. Here, you have to know how to research, and you have to know the subjects you're researching.
(09/22 21:46:14) DocOlanA: But the rewards are tremendous.
(09/22 21:46:39) MustardJeep: I wish you the best of luck, this may be the start of Fan IC.
(09/22 21:47:18) [ Vohkooth ]: mmm[/spoiler]

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The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:56 am 
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Here's an idea, if you're looking for a starting project. Why not pick up where Tricia and them left off? Write some scholarly papers using the cannon already established on things like diet, or types of clothing, or child-rearing, or whatever.

Maybe start by taking suggestions for topics, then you, Doc, pick the best 4-5 and assign them. They should be accurate, with as little speculation as possible, to prove it can be one. Send them to Cyan for their comments and approval. Then, once you have established some level of competence, ask Cyan for some little hints that might be taken and fleshed out into other such essays on topics not yet part of accepted cannon -- in the same vein as RAWA occasionally giving out a new D'ni word.

If I'm not mistaken, this is touching upon the kind of thing you have in mind, Doc, yes?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:37 pm 
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Montgomery wrote:
Here's an idea, if you're looking for a starting project. Why not pick up where Tricia and them left off? Write some scholarly papers using the cannon already established on things like diet, or types of clothing, or child-rearing, or whatever.

Maybe start by taking suggestions for topics, then you, Doc, pick the best 4-5 and assign them. They should be accurate, with as little speculation as possible, to prove it can be one. Send them to Cyan for their comments and approval. Then, once you have established some level of competence, ask Cyan for some little hints that might be taken and fleshed out into other such essays on topics not yet part of accepted cannon -- in the same vein as RAWA occasionally giving out a new D'ni word.

If I'm not mistaken, this is touching upon the kind of thing you have in mind, Doc, yes?


Pretty much hit the nail on the head, Montgomery, and such "summary journals" like Tricia's would be an excellent project for the GoA. Thank you for the suggestion.

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The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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