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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:18 pm 
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darkling27 wrote:
On the guild of writers web site,there is a line that says:
With user-friendly tools, tutorials, and a great community willing to offer help, creating Ages is easy, and fun.


Oh man, I can't believe that is still up there. It's not just an overestimation, it's a lie. That phrase refers to some future tool that will be released, not Blender.

Also, there are no tutorials on the GoW site.

Lastly, creating ages, even when the new tools come, will *not* easy. I think that is a fact universally agreed upon.

The entire site basically tells new visitors that the GoW is already making ages and playing them in MOUL, and that the Guild already has an elected leadership and official sanction from Cyan...

The people who are spearheading the GoW are great, don't get me wrong, and have good intentions, but they have more communication problems than the DRC.

I don't know how whoever runs that site (the actual person who operates the site is still anonymous, by the way) gets away with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:22 pm 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
I don't know how whoever runs that site (the actual person who operates the site is still anonymous, by the way) gets away with it.


Because they aren't paid? Because they aren't representatives of the people and have no legal accountability?

Also, I don't see how "AdamJohnso, Deledrius, Kato, Paradox, Taghtahv, Tiran, Zrax" is anonymous.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Also, I don't see how "AdamJohnso, Deledrius, Kato, Paradox, Taghtahv, Tiran, Zrax" is anonymous.


Well, that went up only after I repeatedly and annoyingly (:wink:) grilled them about it. Originally, it had no names at all on it, and the site admin was called "Guild of Writers."

But my point still stands. Who is the webmaster? Who owns the site and who moderates the forum? We still don't know this?

Plus, the site is not clear about Guild leadership or structure, yet it repeatedly refers to itself as "the Guild." Under what athority does the site call itself "The Guild of Writers," especially when the site was being discussed and agreed upon on this forum it was explicitly called "The Unofficial Guild of Writers?"

Listen, I'd be happy to elect the very people named above, but we haven't had elections yet.

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(how to they get away with it?) Because they aren't paid?


Ha! Good point. But I didn't mean they should be fired or anything, I mean that no one has called them out for that message, which is inaccurate, misleading, and easy to change.

Yes, this is a hobby, and no one is getting paid or anything, but it's also not amateur hour.

Whatever, it doesn't really matter anyway...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:25 am 
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Under what authority do I call myself a D'ni Historian, of a Designer? There is currently discussions going on about leadership structure. Guild doesn't have to have an authority structure if they do not want it, it is up to the guild.

As for who is behind the site, to be honest I'm not overly concerned myself. Not difficult to find out who is the person to talk to over there to get something done. Personally given how hostile the community can get over leadership and what not I'd be running the site anonymously myself if I was in that position.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:38 am 
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Tweek wrote:
Under what authority do I call myself a D'ni Historian, of a Designer?


Get real. There's a stark difference between claiming a profession/skill and claiming a title/position. Many people are designers, but only one person is President of the United States, for example.

You can say "I am a guitar player," but you can't say "I play guitar for Van Halen" unless you are actually hired by Van Halen.

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There is currently discussions going on about leadership structure. Guild doesn't have to have an authority structure if they do not want it, it is up to the guild.


So you're saying that the guild can decide not to have leaders?? That's like congress voting to not have ever existed!

Ha! You prove my point. It's up to the guild?? Who decides for "the guild?" Who is "they?" The people over at the GoW are well intentioned, but without a recognized authority from explorers or Cyan, they will never be able to legitimately decide anything on behalf of the guild.

Listen, I don't mind the feet-dragging so much, but it's the fact that the GoW site basically is presented as if this has all been decided and leaders have already been chosen.

Let's have elections already so this group can actually be official.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:17 pm 
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The Noble Robot wrote:
Tweek wrote:
Under what authority do I call myself a D'ni Historian, of a Designer?


Get real. There's a stark difference between claiming a profession/skill and claiming a title/position. Many people are designers, but only one person is President of the United States, for example.

You can say "I am a guitar player," but you can't say "I play guitar for Van Halen" unless you are actually hired by Van Halen.

True. But then, there's only one President of the United States, and only one person who plays guitar for Van Halen. These are also both known entities; you'd generally be considered insane if you went around claiming that ;).

Conversely, the Guilds are not known entities right now. They're things that we have to build. So if we're building these Guilds, why wouldn't we call ourselves members of them in the process? It would be one thing if we had a Guild of Writers, and someone went around claiming to be a member of it when they clearly weren't... it'd be like someone walking around now telling people they were a member of the Guild of Greeters when they clearly aren't. But the difference is, the Greeters already exist; they are a known quantity in the Cavern, with established procedures for membership. The Writers have no such organization, so I think logically, those who are involved in trying to create it have every right to attach themselves to the group's name whether it's official or not.

Of course, the thing to keep in mind is that while the GoW may not be official, there are a number of people who have several years of experience in the tasks the Guild will be undertaking, and so those people have naturally gravitated into the discussion and have simply naturally taken leadership roles based on their existing experience. I personally see nothing wrong with that; those with considerable experience are probably those best suited to develop a system surrounding their field.

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There is currently discussions going on about leadership structure. Guild doesn't have to have an authority structure if they do not want it, it is up to the guild.


So you're saying that the guild can decide not to have leaders?? That's like congress voting to not have ever existed!

No, it's more like a community voting not to have a mayor. If a Guild wants to organize itself in such a way that everyone is considered equal, with only one level of rank, promotion, access, or power, they are well within their rights and the boundaries of logic to do so. I'm not sure how well it would work out in the long run, but they're perfectly free to establish a level playing field within their Guild if they so choose.

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Ha! You prove my point. It's up to the guild?? Who decides for "the guild?" Who is "they?" The people over at the GoW are well intentioned, but without a recognized authority from explorers or Cyan, they will never be able to legitimately decide anything on behalf of the guild.

While I wholeheartedly agree that ultimately, it comes down to Cyan and to a certain extent the explorers to decide the officiality of any Guild system that gets developed, I think the decision-making process for creating that Guild should be left to those who have a marked interest in its creation in the first place. Logically, they would be the ones best suited to understand the requirements of such an organization, and be in the best position to develop a system for handling those requirements. Ideally, all those interested in creating such a group would work together, and perhaps amazingly, that seems to be happening so far. The GoMe is perhaps taking off a lot slower, likely because of the questions over how to integrate with established "media" groups in the Cavern already, but the GoMa seems to be rolling along fairly smoothly as one group, and the GoW is, so far, in a similar position.

Now, here's my main question: what exactly would these elections you're calling for be doing? Voting on whether to create the Guild? Who should run it? How to structure it? How to perform the tasks assigned to it? What those tasks should be in the first place? (Why do these questions sound eerily familiar?) These are decisions already being made by those with an actual interest in the Guild in the first place. While their decisions are obviously not "official" until Cyan says they are, I fail to see how that invalidates the work they're doing to create a group whose officiality can actually be decided.

To pull this off of the GoW briefly, I'd like to ask you this: I'm working to establish a Guild of Archivists in the Cavern. Do I need public approval before doing so? Do I need to be elected to a non-existent position of non-power before anything I say or do has any legitimacy? Do my eight years of unofficial experience count for anything in the decision-making process of creating the GoA? Would we even get 10 votes in a public poll on who should lead such a Guild, or how it should be run, or what it should be doing?

Incidentally, that's another thing to keep in mind: holding public elections for the leadership of a specialized organization is likely not going to generate much interest. Heck, we can't even get people in this country to vote for the President once every 4 years ;). Holding an election in public for the GoW leadership will likely generate interest and candidates only from those already involved in the process in the first place, basically leaving us right back where we are now, with no official approval of the Guild from Cyan. If you want to have a say in what a given Guild should be like, join in the conversations these groups already have underway. In my experience, the best way to influence the process is to get involved in the process itself, not vote on the various minutiae involved in creating the process to decide things. ;)

I say, let the GoW do their thing. If they develop a system that Cyan doesn't approve of, or if they're simply unable to develop something that works well enough to submit it to Cyan for approval, then so be it. However, if their efforts are approved by Cyan as an official Guild of Writers, I think it will be a Guild built on the experience of those best suited to lead it, and capable of hitting the ground running with any responsibilities that end up being thrown its way.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:04 pm 
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I think we should set up leadership in the GoW right away, but so far people are arguing against me. Why don't you have this discussion on the GoW forums, The Noble Robot?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:57 pm 
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I agree with Alahmnat. The percentage of the explorers involved in Guild discussion is small and even less people are devoting time to actually try to build something. I say we should give them a chance as long as they are inclusive to every one interested in guild discussion and participation. However I don't think every Guild need a leader right now. I don't even think the GoMe will have a leader for several months. Nor do it needs one. The Messaging organizations are very well organized and autonomous on their own. They don't need a guild leader telling them what or not do. The GoG also have a non hierarchical structure and it works for them. Yes, through time natural leaders rise and inspire others but they don't need to be voted into a postition of power.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:30 pm 
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Besides everything will change depending on what cyan decides. We can have all the elections and discussion we want, but if cyan doesnt like something we will have to change it.
Untill we know what exactly cyan wants nothing is written in stone. Everything on that site can and probley will change as time goes on.

also if you want to know who the website admin is just check Whois.net all you need is the web address.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:58 pm 
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goofy wrote:
also if you want to know who the website admin is just check Whois.net all you need is the web address.


Not to nitpick, but that's not entirely accurate. WhoIs tells you who owns the domain name, not who owns the webspace. In the case of the GoMa, one of us owns the domain name, while another owns the webspace.

Backing up a bit, Alahmnat, once again, very well put. *clap* Using the example of Congress, remember, they were not "official" or "ordained" by anyone but themselves. As a matter of fact, they were going against everything that was the "powers that be" in their time. So look at what that got them: a new country and a new legislative body. Interesting, huh? :)

Let each Guild do what it feels needs to be done. If there is a problem when Cyan finally comes around with the rules (which I think will actually be guidelines), then the Guilds can tweak what needs to be changed, or start from scratch, if its that severe (highly unlikely). But if you don't start somewhere now, you won't have anything at all when the time comes.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:08 pm 
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Alahmnat wrote:
(I'm not stalking you, I swear...)


It's flattering, actually :wink:

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It would be one thing if we had a Guild of Writers, and someone went around claiming to be a member of it when they clearly weren't...


Just so you know, I pretty much completely agree with you on everything, but you're failing to address the point I'm trying to make. My point is that this site goes around as if there actually were a Guild of Writers, and that all of this was decided already! In fact, there are threads which say, unequivocally, "we are the official guild of writers."

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No, it's more like a community voting not to have a mayor.


Fine, use whatever metaphor you want. But there's no community to do the voting, and certainly there has been no vote. That's my point.

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Now, here's my main question: what exactly would these elections you're calling for be doing? Voting on whether to create the Guild? Who should run it? How to structure it? How to perform the tasks assigned to it? What those tasks should be in the first place? (Why do these questions sound eerily familiar?)


Right! Exactly, we've already had tons of informal polls right here on MOUL to determine the community's opinion on these issues, under the strict banner "Unofficial Guild of Writers" (where it even said "this is not official"). And then, (as a result of one of the polls) the GoW site is set up, and starts calling itself "official," and all of that gets forgotten.

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Do I need to be elected to a non-existent position of non-power before anything I say or do has any legitimacy?


You're being sarcastic, but if you want to call yourself "official," absolutely yes.

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Do my eight years of unofficial experience count for anything in the decision-making process of creating the GoA?


Only in so much that it will help get you elected.

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Would we even get 10 votes in a public poll on who should lead such a Guild, or how it should be run, or what it should be doing?


Maybe not, and you may laugh at that, but you have to do it anyway if you want to call yourself "official" the way that the Gow site has.

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Incidentally, that's another thing to keep in mind: holding public elections for the leadership of a specialized organization is likely not going to generate much interest.


So let's just not so it, then?

Pryftan wrote:
I think we should set up leadership in the GoW right away, but so far people are arguing against me. Why don't you have this discussion on the GoW forums, The Noble Robot?


Sorry, I tried to be involved there, but I kept getting shut out. And while I talk a big game in this thread, I still think that all of this "official" stuff should wait until we actually have some support from Cyan.

This is why I am so upset that this group went back on their assurance that they would be strictly "unofficial." Most of the people who would be involved in this Guild are not, frankly, going to camp out online for months while nothing happens, just so that they have pull with the leadership. This is what is happening right now...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:10 am 
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Currently the GoW is an informal group of people interested in building Ages. It doesn't really matter what your perception is on how the site presents it. That can be adjusted. I do agree with you about official stuff but we're discussing that on the GoW forums currently.

The present web site and forums have the merit of bringing together a very dispersed community that has been around since Rand posted The Letter in February 2004. There were so many different forums I lost count. It was impossible to get a clear picture on what (little) was happening.

The current GoW is where things happen now. We're focusing on building Ages and finding ideas for getting them in MOUL and it is working. It is the place for people who want to actually DO create content. That is pretty much the best possible definition for a GoW right now.

When Cyan makes up its mind about the real guilds, we'll find a way for fitting in.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:38 am 
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Alahmnat wrote:
Of course, the thing to keep in mind is that while the GoW may not be official, there are a number of people who have several years of experience in the tasks the Guild will be undertaking, and so those people have naturally gravitated into the discussion and have simply naturally taken leadership roles based on their existing experience. I personally see nothing wrong with that; those with considerable experience are probably those best suited to develop a system surrounding their field.

In fact, the people you are referring to in the “GoW” stated repeatedly that they did not wish to assume positions of leadership. And I see plenty wrong with such a system; think of the numerous stories you’ve heard in which geniuses in their fields took top positions in business or government only to prove absolutely inept in the financial, organizational and social skills necessary to their new positions.
Alahmnat wrote:
To pull this off of the GoW briefly, I'd like to ask you this: I'm working to establish a Guild of Archivists in the Cavern. Do I need public approval before doing so?

That depends on whether you would prefer to have the input of those who would be eager members of such a prospective group. If you simply want the Guild of Archivists to be the way you envision it, and if you want to dictate to others, then no – you don’t need anyone’s approval, you just need some members that want to be led!

In your message, you seem almost disdainful of the voting process. While recent worldwide events would give you every reason to feel that way, voting shouldn't be thrown away: the alternatives are much worse.

You make the process of voting appear to be a painful one. In our age, and knowing that most everyone involved here has some computer skills, setting up and casting votes doesn’t have to be painful at all. Voting can be done easily, frequently, and on the smallest of issues, so that everyone can feel they had at least an opportunity to participate in the direction of the group. Also bear in mind that (aside from some Guilds’ timely issues during an episode) very little we are doing here has to be on a tight deadline, so ample notice of upcoming votes can be given through the Pub imager and other venues.
Alahmnat wrote:
Do I need to be elected to a non-existent position of non-power before anything I say or do has any legitimacy?

Everything you say and do even now has legitimacy – as Alahmnat.
But if one wants to wear some official mantle, others must know that garment was obtained through a democratic process, otherwise one is generally seen as having delusions of grandeur.
Alahmnat wrote:
Do my eight years of unofficial experience count for anything in the decision-making process of creating the GoA?

In the eyes of those who know you already, certainly your opinion will be highly regarded. But does your past tenure give you even 1.001 votes as opposed to a newcomer’s single vote? Of course not. And to the newcomers in the Cavern, we all have to establish our reputations based only on our words and deeds in MO:UL.

As so many have already said, even the smallest word from Cyan as to whether they are going to involve themselves in any way with the Guilds would make an enormous difference. Not that I'd prefer it, but to hear them say clearly "Nope - we're going to take a completely hands-off approach" would let us know that we're on our own and fending for ourselves, that whatever work we do will not later be made illegitimate or redundant by Cyan.

Especially with the GoW, to hear Cyan simply say that they will or will not be forthcoming with agewriting tools would make an enormous difference in the community's commitment levels. It's very awkward to put in thousands of hours building an age without knowing if or how that age will be brought into MO:UL, or if the approach you're taking will be legitimate under rules later to be established by Cyan.

What's the most practical way for us to get a petition to Cyan rolling on these few simple, direct, questions?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:53 am 
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I think that you have like minded people who are talking about what they would like to do. Until there is a mechanism for people to get certain kinds of access or "stuff", in-game, it's like minded people having interesting conversations on what they would like to do. I don't see anything wrong with that - it's fine, very nice actually, but it's not exactly game guilds. The only thing available in Uru live is the guild tee-shirt mechanism. If you pick a particular tee shirt, you get access to one and only one guild age, guild hall.

What might happen sometime in the future (I'm speculating) is that, depending on what tee shirt you picked, you get access to different stuff, depending on the guild tee shirt you picked. In that situation, I would say that we had guilds in Uru Live.

As for age writing tools, these are not in-game "make a mod" tools. I think of the tools as "so you want to be a game developer" tools. Blender is open source (you don't have to buy an expensive product), but it's not an easy to use in-game mod tool. These are tools you would use if you want to be a game developer, though if someone was paying you, you might use more tools that were proprietary, not open source.

I think the biggest issue on in-game mod tools, is that, generally for it to work, I think that the game has to be designed with the mod tools in mind - no after the fact solution. I don't think that Uru live was created with an easy to use mod tool, as part of game development and rollout. You can explain it, in an IC (in character) way, I suppose, by saying that writing an age is hard.

What's really interesting is that you have to completely remove yourself from the game to do it - to make an age. It's the most non IC (in character) thing I can think of doing. You literally look at Uru Live as a game, and you are a game developer. I don't have a big point to make - I just think that's very interesting.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:40 am 
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Ok, this thread has totally derailed onto leadership issues now... lol
At the end of the day, If cyan was to of made official guild sites and appoint a few to be moderators, then we wouldn't have this problem and all of this could of been avoided. *Shrugs* Maybe guild parts could be added to this site with all the links to the different sites, for each guild.

And your right, no one should call them self the official guild site. Only Cyan can do that. But maybe the GoW site could act as this 'web gate' to the other GoW sites?

But that isn't the subject in this thread is it. This is about what the explorers can do now, not about who runs what site. The people who don't really care if there the official ones or not, but they want to join a community of like minded people, who want to do the same thing.

So far the only options that were presented to me are...

*Go to kirel, read up on guilds and get a T-shirt
*Get link to guild pub, find that no one is ever there.
*Give up because there are no obvious leads in game saying, 'hey, we have communities on the web, come visit some of us, here n here or here.'
*I finally decided, i will look on the net because i really want to become part of the guild of writers, and thought, there must be some sites somewhere devoted to it.
* Found a site n though, ok.... some talk about easy tools n stuff that don't exist. Oh ok... i am meant to be using blender.
* look at blender.... ah! buttons and horrible confusing technology! (Dies- or would of, but in Uru u cant die...)

i can imagine how many people just wouldn't be bothered to even try and get involved... Im now trying my best to understand Blender. I'm getting there... slowly. (i made a gingerbread man, yay :D )

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