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Do you want the option to be a bad/good guy in URU
Yes 20%  20%  [ 15 ]
No 43%  43%  [ 32 ]
BRING ME THE BLUE PAGES! 37%  37%  [ 28 ]
Total votes : 75
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:00 am 
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Jimbo wrote:
What a question. Of course I want to be a bad guy in Uru. We all know that bad guys have more fun....I mean real fun. :lol:
Or was it blondes.....?


Yeah, it's blonde bad guys have more fun. Or, wait. Maybe it was bad blondes have more fun.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:30 am 
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As a lifelong blonde I can honestly say, Bad Blondes Have More Fun.

So, bring me the blue pages and bring on the MYSTERY!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:30 am 
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The only thing I can think of that would be evil and yet "In Cavern" is keep my Bahro pillars. Which I have done. I don't think of it as evil. I just see the Bahro as below the worth of my attention. If they saw fit to link their souls to pillars that can be stolen well that seems more like a "them" problem and not so much a "me" problem. Besides that I wouldn't ruin the puzzle solving for anyone (Which you could do) although I have offered to complete ages for people who were new. Even then I would give them a chance. SOOOO many people with "good" intentions totally spoil the game. Ahnonay was spoiled by an foolishly written walkthrough. And it's this naivety that has made me decide to seek another way.


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So Graizur, if you want to be an evil overlord, just start recruiting henchmen. Who knows, one day you might get your own Secret Underground Lair Age.



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:40 pm 
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We?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Have you forgotten? All evil villains refer to themselves in the third person. We do so as well. Yes... precious.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:26 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Have you forgotten? All evil villains refer to themselves in the third person. We do so as well. Yes... precious.


"We" isn't third person. It's first person plural.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:32 pm 
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LuigiHann wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
Have you forgotten? All evil villains refer to themselves in the third person. We do so as well. Yes... precious.


"We" isn't third person. It's first person plural.

I believe you mean "the royal we," or possibly just the "totally loony we." :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:00 pm 
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Graizur wrote:
The only thing I can think of that would be evil and yet "In Cavern" is keep my Bahro pillars.

As some other people have done already, I'm going to suggest that there is more than one can do to be "evil" or "bad" within the construct of the setting of the game. I think what you are saying is that within the game mechanics (what one can or cannot do within the scope of the client), there is nothing you can do participate in actions that you would have others believe are evil.

Are you looking for something within the mechanics of the client/setting that identifies you as the root of all evil? Or something else?

Yea, you are right there. Mechanically, and (as Mowog pointed out) even within scope of the story content, user interactions and consequences do not currently seem that robust. And how robust any future Cyan or player generated content is still in the future and apparently undefined.

This gets us a question I've asked a couple of people when they've raised complaints: "What can we do about it today?"
Asking this question has given me more information about what is possible, even if, in sum total, it still involves a lot of work.

But I do have to ask the question, what do you mean by Bad Guy. Can we assume evil? Can we assume your character just wants to hurt other Explorers for his/her own perverse joy? Is there some agenda that the character is looking to further by their actions? How much work are you and your Explorer looking to invest in time and resources?
I should note: I'm not suggesting that you answer any of these questions here. Don't spoil the surpise unless you really want to.

Just being a bad person, well, I don't see that as a good enough reason to devise a character. Sounds rather cookie cutter detention hall. But if you have something more in mind, then ok, cool. What do you need in the lines of help from the community? How well do you see your own ability to craft a story out of what's already out there and maybe go beyond (writing ages, DRCsite forums, hosting yet another website).

Or are you really just looking to be Mr. Bad Explorer, "cause I think it would be fun to be that way" ?

In Cavern, as it is normally used here, is the same as In Character in other games. But we have some special limitations right now because of the release methodology (semi-monthly episodic content release), number of players who do not participate, IC, during non-episode weeks, number of players who do not participate, IC, even then, the currently limited capabilities to inject content in all areas, but there are a few:
*Markers can be dropped with short messages almost anywhere, but the mission has to be delivered somehow
*Messages can be posted in YOUR hood
*Cyan provides a way to post a custom image to your KI, which you can post to your imager or KI-mail
*There are IC forums at the DRC website (not in the client, but some of us do go there)

Is this what you mean, or are you looking for a more canned/cookie cutter "The Game Lets Me Be A Bad Guy"?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:27 pm 
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Choosing "evil" or its equivalent, as a story element, could be done in an interesting way. That is, if the mechanics were put into the game that not everyone is on Yeesha's path, that it could make a difference whether you supported the DRC instead of Yeesha, that you could support the bad bahro instead of the good bahro, that would be very interesting. The obvious way being that there would be areas in the game only accessible to one faction or the other.

MO:UL players are astonishingly mature and good-natured, and could probably make that work.

The real problem would be if they allowed the players to affect each other in any meaningful way. That is, to be actually evil people, instead of good people with different allegiances. Few people are mature enough in their gaming to play that scenario in a way that's fun for everyone.

I'm not just spouting a random opinion here: it is an interesting study, the "remote" effect--it's seen in lots of places. A person who wouldn't cut in line will cut you off viciously while driving in traffic. A person who wouldn't say a rude word to a stranger's face will be insanely rude in an e-mail. You say things on the phone you wouldn't say in person.

And people will do things in a game that they know is making the experience less fun for someone, because the remoteness of the interaction just brings it out.

In short, if I am not allowed to push you off a cliff and have it stick, then I don't want you being able to interfere with my fun out of sheer meanness or spite. But meaningful factions would be interesting.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:41 pm 
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What Butch and vidroth said! They were far more thoughtful than I was, but they said what I meant. :) I'm sincerely curious to see how this would work, and I would like to propose this to the S.A.P.S. as a future discussion topic for our (hopefully!) ongoing Cavern Life forum.

It seems to me that, given how little impact we can have on the "material" aspects of the game (at least, up to now), the co-operation of other players would be essential, and if the activity is something that would reduce their enjoyment of the game, they will not co-operate.

That's the thing about Uru. There is nothing any player can do to compel any other player to do or not do anything. There is hardly even anything a player can do to materially impact another player in any way. (Emotional impact is another issue.) This removes most of Evil's traditional bag of tricks.

Hmm, here's a thought. [spoiler]You could rotate their Ahnonay without their permission, if you have an invite. That would be evil. :twisted: [/spoiler]

By the way, the poll with this thread is coffee-on-the-monitor funny. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:56 am 
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Generally, if you play an opposing side in other online games, either a monster or an opposing side, it's part of game mechanics. It's not generally upsetting to people because they know the rules. I'm not talking about "greifing" or just being an obnoxious mean person/people. I'm talking about playing a villian character, with the associated mechanics and gameplay - something that is part of the game.

Lord of the Rings Online has an interesting approach to this. LOTRO is all about the Lord of the Rings canon (story is huge in LOTRO), and it's about good winning over evil. Since they stick to the Lord of the Rings canon, they don't want people to have permanent membership in an evil group - they just don't. So, you temporarily get to inhabit a monster when you want to do a PvP (player versus player) combat kind of thing.

The thing about Uru is that, right now, there is no way to have opposing forces that are productive and fun, if that's what you want to do. Me, I personally like PvE (player versus environment) but that's me. Perhaps you can try to block someone from something, but where's the fun in that? All you are doing is stopping someone from doing something, you aren't doing something in it's place. Also, people don't know the rules. If you want to have competitive play, or opposing forces, I think that the game mechanics and the rules have to be really clear. In games where there are factions, it's clear what's going on.

That's how I look at it.

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Last edited by mszv on Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:02 am 
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I liked one aspect of the conflict in World of Warcraft: The Alliance and Horde characters can't understand each other. It prevents flaming and cursing during a fight. :)

mszv: I think the idea was to play a foil to the general movement of the other side, i.e. dark lake vs. light lake, Yeesha vs. DRC... Right now there aren't any tangible sides to chose really, but I can see them coming. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:17 am 
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Quote:
By the way, the poll with this thread is coffee-on-the-monitor funny. :lol:


Thank you.

NOW on to some answers. No I do not mean evil as in hurt other players. I don't want to upset or anger or frustrate or ruin or spoil it for other players. Think of it this way, what would playing TAG (as a kid) have been like with out some one playing as IT. What would playing Hide and Go Seek (or manhunt as some people call it or Hideandgoseektag) with some one being IT?

I don't want to be just an annoying player. Some one who earns peoples trusts to get invites and then explores their ages while they are not there and ruins things for them. I don't want to do that, no. Well maybe. If I could some how turn some ones age into a trap book that would be cool. They would have to start that age over. That is not TOO much of an inconvenience and it would only force them to re-explore the age after having to delete it. ACTUALLY this is a really good idea for Cyan. It's a way to incorporate reply (which isn't that bad once you have learned the puzzles) into tha games story. If cyan made it so some ages or all ages could be turned into a trap book (with only an exit to a Relto).
There are a few ways they could do this and here is the easiest 2 I could think of gameplay wise. Some one invents something that pulls any one linking in to a location. Be it a special kind of Journey cloth or some sort of KI device. You can place this link vacuum in an inescapable hole like the pit in Er'canna or the crack in Gareeshan. You could also put it behind any of the Bahro doors in any of the Garden ages or Gareeshan or Teledon. THEN
THEN
THEN

Cyan makes some sort of game which requires players to share their ages. Make it like the puzzles in Garden ages except in all the ages and easier. This will encourage people to invite others into their ages. The reward for this puzzle with be called Reward Alpha.

And here is the kicker. You ad a 3rd function. The get-out-of-my-age link book head slap. If you suspect some on is going to drop a LV(Link Vacuum) into your age you go and find them (chase ensues) and slap them on the head with your Relto linking book. This will bring them back to your age on the dock. You then link yourself out and have to rush to lock back up your library so they can't link back in.

Rules:
LVs cannot be dropped into reltos except your own.
LVs have passwords that turn them off.
(optional and not necessary for the game) LVs reset journey cloth touches. So even if you have turned it off with a password the journey cloth save point is reset.
If you unlock a book but close your library you can still send a working invite but guest linkers to your Relto wont be able to access your linking book and it will take them time to link out of your Relto into their Relto then into their NEXUS and back into your Age to try to LV you again. By which point you will have closed off that invite and you will have stopped them from turning your Age into a Prison Age.

But only if you catch them. If you do not catch them if you don't catch them in time the LV gets dropped into your Age your journey cloths get reset and every time you link into that book you will be linked to the LVs location. You can delete the Age or you can ask for the password from the villain.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:30 am 
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What great comments!

SCGreyWolf - I can see where you are coming from, good points. What I was trying to say is that, right now, we don't seem to have an option to do two equally interesting but opposing things. We can choose (spoiler I guess, but so tiny) to not drop pellets, but that's "not" doing something, as opposed to doing something that's interesting and takes the place of dropping pellets. We seem to have a choice of "do something in the game or don't do it", not "pick one of two different but equally interesting things to do".

I'm all about doing something interesting in the game.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:42 am 
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If I had the time I think it would be fun to get a group together but I just don't have time. Work keeps me too busy so I've been a happy spectator for the most part. I don't complain about not having any say in the story because I have not tried to steer the story. I think some things can be control somewhat by the explorers you just have to key in on topic when you have the chance and I don't just mean one person. It has to be an effort by.. about 25% of the ppl there. I will try to explain.

Lets just take something easy that has happened. Cate releasing a new age. Cyan has a script written out for her to type out. That actor (or whoever) is probably typing away as quick as possible to get things thru in a timely manner. She may be missing comments by explorers here and there.
With that said. How do WE get her attention. How do we get her to stick around a little longer. To do that I think we need to ask a question that keys in on topic. Sure there are going to be about 100 ppl there but that's where an organized group (25 or more) comes in. Reading thru the previous chat logs I see that Cate answered many questions, particularly the ones on topic.
So after Cate has made her statement about the release of the new age, lets get her to us.

Explorer1, "Wow Cate great thanks for the new age. May I ask where you found the book?
(chat may go on without answer)
Explorer2, "Yah Cate, Explorer1 has got me interested. Where was that book found?"
(if chat goes on without answer)
Explorer3, "I think Explorer1 and Explorer2 should have a valid question. Where was the book found?"

Sooner or later by explorer20 or so you should get an answer, if not much sooner. It may be i quick, "I'm not sure" or "I don't recall". If it's one of those you can go straight to the INVITE statement. If she answers with a City location then you have her attention. It's time to give her another question.

Explorer1, "I noticed at the DRC site it took 3 months to prepare that age. Was it damaged equimpent or structual?"

Again go thru the explorers in the group until you get an answer. It may end with,
Cate "Laxman would know more about that than I would."

Which is the answer you are looking for. It's the "this isn't scripted" answer. Hit her with the...

INVITE

Explore1, "Thanks for the info Cate. Could you come by the 'xxx Bevin' to discuss this further tomorrow? Bring Laxman with you if he has time. We have lots more question about the age."
Explore2, "Excellent idea, Explorer1, I'd love to learn more about the restoration"
Explore3, "I'll be there!"

Go thru all the explorers on these replies. Show a LARGE interest. This will force the issue. I am sure Cate will not make promisses but the next day when there are 98 ppl in that bevin, Cyan may feel obligated to show up. THis time with a larger expanded script along the topic lines you outlined.
Be sure to outline or target what you want answers to in the initial conversation with easy questions on the topic. That way Cyan can prepare for the meeting. Also don't force a time for the meeting. Maybe even mention it as two day from now. That way you can nail down a time later. Best bet is to just expect Cyan to be ready in the late afternoon or evening and fill up the hood at that point.
Yes I know Cate is gone but this was just an example.

I think Cyan would love this kinda participation. There are even ways to get the "explorer villian" into this in a similar manner. Just takes the more work and a quick leader. This would take an orginization working similar to the relayers.

The leader stays quiet and watches the chat. He/she keys in on a point that can be steered... remember this is the evil guy. Lets take Yeesha in Kveer for this one.

Yeesha: He is missing a large patch of skin on his shoulder - taken from him in the tortuous lab of Esher.
Yeesha: Because of that, I will draw them away. Away from the cavern. Away from you.
Yeesha: I do not know how long they will seek what I carry. It could be only days, it could be months.

Ok the first thing that came to me IMMEDIATELY after reading this was maybe they are angry because she has this. Maybe all this is just over getting this back. Maybe they followed YEESHA here looking for this!. So the Evil leader pm's the henchmen in the crowd and they make his statements...

Henchman1, "SO YOU are the reason the Bahro are here."
Henchman2, "They are following what YOU have!"
Henchman3, "Why don't you just give it back to them?"
Henchman4, "You are the cause for all our troubles."

Simple one liners like these can be pm'd from the Evil Leader to his henchmen and have them release the info there, to the public. Get 20 Henchmen in the room and you may have just steered Yeesha's speech! That would be EVIL :twisted:
But take notice that this has to be on the fly and ON topic. You can't go in complaining about not having bathrooms in the middle of Yeesha's speech. You have to pick something out of the speech and move your agenda along. Also notice that most are statements not questions. They are looking for a response and not an answer. They will make the other explorers think, "Who is this group that thinks Yeesha is bad?" The fact that there is no known leader will make it seem more like a movement than just one person's agenda. Also after making the statements link out. Only the leader stays to see the reactions. Don't HOG the conversation either unless you are looking for hatred from the community.

Sorry I am not a better writter but I hope that I have given ppl ideas.

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